icarus | Have a little politics with your dessert.

I think one of the saddest things is that the US would just thumb our collective nose at the UN and whatever it found, unless, of course, it found that the elections were just the most perfect example of representative democracy in action. I mean that's exactly what we've been doing, isn't it. aarrrgh!

We need them there. We need this oversight so badly.

Icarus

I have no argument, and I hope it makes a difference. I really, really do.

Wait, you invented democracy :o) ?

Okay, we kiped it from the greeks (as another poster said). But the idea had been dead for 1700 years in favor of monarchies, theocracy, etc.

Technically, the US system isn't really a pure democracy either. It's a combination of a Democracy and a Republic. *gestures to the electoral college*

Icarus

It hadn't been all dead, you know - other nations had ½/¼-democracies... :oD

*thinks*

Nah. Doesn't count. People get to vote or they don't. The democracy idea snowballed, there was the house of commons, but when the US put it into practice, people predicted mayhem would result.

The idea of giving an uneducated farmer a vote at all was appalling, and largely the reason we have electoral college: it was to hedge our bets, just in case the "ignorant" were swayed to put someone in charge who didn't belong there.

No one believed the system would work. Least of all world-wide.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Greeks' democracy... it was the aristocracy that had the vote, correct? Shepherds and people who belonged to a certain household were automatically represented by the head of that family?

Icarus

Whereas in the US, women were allowed to vote from day 1 :oP

Oh no, women were too delicate to vote anywhere. They had to be coddled and cared for, the little poppets.

Just a question: why has this comment about the US provoked such a sarcastic response? Is it the general anti-American feeling overall? I had another comment here from someone I don't even know that I deleted. Your tone isn't nasty, but this shouldn't be such a hot button.

Every invention is built on other inventions. Saying that someone invented "X" does not negate the fact that "Y" is what led to it. Political theory is the same.

Icarus

I dunno, if Skuf's European, we sometimes get narked off when people suggest that the US was a democracy before, say, England. Besides, neither was a democracy- the US is a federal republic, and England was a republic for about a decade whilst Cromwell was in power. Before then, it was constitutional monarchy.

It's not so much American-baiting as a general wish that people would stop assuming that America is the only/first/best democracy. Besides, the issue wasn't so much with uneducated farmers- after all, a good proportion of the Founding Fathers were highly educated, massively rich farmers, whilst yeoman farmers in England had been voting for years. The problem was often more that it was one of the first times that an English-speaking colony broke away, helped by another colonial empire (the French), in an act of rebellion shortly after the debauchery of the French Revolution.

Oh hell. I've waffled badly. Forgive me. Two years of highly enthusiastic politics teachers does that to a boy.

Ah, waffling is good. It's also called seeing the situation from all sides. :)

It's rather like the annoyance of the Bhutanese whenever Tibetan Buddhism is called Tibetan Buddhism. The same form of Buddhism was found in Bhutan first, and Tibet routinely tried to annex Bhutan over the centuries. So Bhutan is no big fan of Tibet.

But on the world stage, Tibet's the big star, so the term that stuck in the western countries is Tibetan Buddhism. It rankles every time they hear it.

Icarus

I realised that Americans make a distinction between "United States" the place, and "America" the archetype, the ideal. I waxed poetic here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/icarusancalion/277082.html?thread=3259482#t3259482). I can see why there's confusion if people don't realise we mean two different things.

We actually switch words when we're talking about one or the other. There's a little sloppiness, but generally that holds true.

The concept "America" is synonomous with democracy, freedom, etc. So we'll never have a problem with saying "America" invented democracy. But if someone stood up and said the United States invented democracy, we'd come to a screeching halt and say "whoa, hold on here."

Like most archetypes, "America" is a very amorphous idea invoking many broad ideals.

Icarus

I'm really, really not attacking or trying to be nasty - I lived over 2 years in the States and many parts of it I love to bits!! So the following is just my honest opinion and feelings, etc., etc.

why has this comment about the US provoked such a sarcastic response? Is it the general anti-American feeling overall?
Yeah, I'm afraid it is. Well, not anti-American - just anti-"We Americans are the best evah!" The United States are at this point the biggest political (and probably cultural?) power/influence in the world - no contest. But it wasn't always like that. But you often get Americans in the media and in RL who seem to believe it is so. Aaand from over here (Europe) that's kind of a joke:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Greeks' democracy... it was the aristocracy that had the vote, correct? Shepherds and people who belonged to a certain household were automatically represented by the head of that family?
And in the States, women couldn't vote - and slaves and Native Americans? I don't know about the last two, but I kind of doubt they were allowed to vote? In other words, not that much more democratic than Ancient Greece?

Anyways - yeah, I totally admit, I boggled at your statement, because from my POV it's just not true. But it sucks to have someone attack your nationality - and of course you have as much right as anyone to be proud of yours (if I was born in the States, I'd be damn proud to be American - I happen to be born in Denmark, so I'm damn proud of that; I'm just that kind of person), so I understand you feeling defensive. Sorry, *sniff*. That's not a sarcastic *sniff*, btw.

I really suck at internet communication :o/

If you've only lived in the United States, then you've no way to understand.

You think this is arrogance, but that's not true. You've taken this statement as a Greek and therefore out of context.

This is a cultural value that runs pretty deep. I tell you, you put a speech about democracy in a movie, and just watch how the Americans respond. Watch. People either tear up, or sit up straighter.

Most Americans feel that this country should represent democracy. That this is what we're about, above and beyond the petty politics and personal issues and splits between the Republicans and Democrats. It's a common thread that holds this country together: this belief that the definition of America is democracy.

People who react to this comment don't understand Americans. We use the two words differently. There is a distinction.

The United States is a place, it has 52 states, and it's leaders fuck-up, and usually fuck-up big.

But "America" on the other hand, means an ideal, Jeffersonian in tone and scope. It's the Declaration of Independence, it's the Constituation, it's the Bill of Rights. "America" is what this country should be about, what we're shooting for.

This isn't arrogance. This is saying that we value something that is bigger than these 52 states, and our own plot of land, and this or that politician in office. It's bigger than ourselves. This is good, not arrogant. It's not about us, you see.

America to Americans is an archetype.

No one here would say the United States invented democracy, no more than we invented freedom. But "America" is something bigger.

Don't tear down the ideal and the value, thinking we're saying we're better. Values and ideals will always supercede the people who are trying to represent them.

It's sounds to me like Europeans don't know the distinction between these two words, and may not even know that - in various versions- we hold these ideals, represented by the word America.

Icarus

Hmm, see, that's the thing, we don't know the difference. Say America, and we think of two British colonies, one of which buggered off to rule its own affairs. So even then, we see America as part of a progression, not a revolutionary concept, even though it was. If that makes any sense. America is a cutting from the big tree of Europe, split off to do its own thing in the better soil of revolution, ditching the old soil full of the poisons of monarchy and the class system, and whilst the American shoot has grown as tall as the original tree, it's not as wide or as deep-rooted. It rankles that we're just as tall but the US is claiming all the glory.

We're not brought up, especially in England, to see free speech and universal suffrage as either a God-given right or as a crowning ideal. In fact, I'm no longer sure of what Europe, or even England is supposed to represent. It's not just democracy, it's not Major's warm beer and old maidens cycling through the mists, it's not Blair's multicultural Cool Britannia, it's not even Shakespeare's proto-colonialist power fighting the French for the good of the King. It's all of those stretching back past the Romans to the refugees of Troy, an example to Europe yet entirely alien, a certain decency and love of the underdog, yet imperialist, rotten to the core by class struggle and patronistic outlooks. We've gone through the idealism of the first Elizabeth and the decadence of the Regency, through the cynicism inculcated by two World Wars, up to a time when we're comfortable to be the godfather of greater nations, battered, poorer, wiser.

John Bull is dead, long live John Bull!

Oh hell, I just got carried away again...

You've taken this statement as a Greek and therefore out of context.
It sound like you're saying I'm Greek? I'm not, I'm Danish. We didn't invent democracy, either - heck, we didn't even invent the ombudsman, although lots of Danes think we did.

I completely agree that democracy is embodied in the idea of America. And Americans put a new spin on/re-invented democracy in 1776? Sure.

But the country that invented democracy? No. That's what I objected to, as the statement made it sound like the concept didn't exist at all until 1776. That's all.

Well, you could make a case for inventing the Protestant work ethic that paved the way for the social change of the Industrial Revolution. If we're going to talk about inventing concepts at all.

But the country that invented democracy? No. That's what I objected to, as the statement made it sound like the concept didn't exist at all until 1776. That's all.

Tough. You're missing the point, zeroing in on a phrase you don't like and taking it out of context. That's what I object to, and I continue to do so.

The point of course is that America, which should represent democracy, should not be in this position of having other people watchdog to make sure we uphold it. That's all.

Icarus

Ok.

Didn't exactly close that underline tag, did I?

God, the whole point of this was to tell people about some relatively good news that at least someone was watching the Florida elections this time. Sheesh.

Icarus

We are so fucked.

Sorry, sorry. Maybe I should just quote a friend I saw at a party tonight: "I am hopeful, but not optimistic."

I'm keeping my spirits up, and watching that tight race with hope. By rights, Bush should have had a slight lead after the Republican convention, but that's just not happening.

Icarus

I too was thinking perhaps you need to reconsider the description 'the country that invented democracy'. 'Invention' suggestions development from scratch, rather than building on a number of pre-existing models and a great deal of theoretical discussion over the centuries, as well as some pretty half-baked experiments.

Still, kudos to the gentlemen of property sick of being badly micro-managed from a practically galactic distance, for their time, for putting into practice a pretty good model, which their successors eventually built on to include women, and former slaves. A pity, as you say, that it's still in doubt that that model is being properly applied across the board, where it suits some people to pervert or obstruct it for political gain.

I've had some time to think about this. I said it better here. (http://www.livejournal.com/users/icarusancalion/277082.html?thread=3259482#t3259482)

For Americans, there's a difference between "United States" and "America." The United States is us, a place. We'd never say that the United States invented democracy, that wouldn't be fair.

But America... is an idea, and ideal. An archetype of what this country should be, what it represents: it's Jeffersonian in its tone and scope; it's the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, the Constitution. It's a cultural value.

It's bigger than us. What we're saying is that this ideal, America, is synonomous with democracy, with freedom. And it most certainly is. Even if the United States doesn't always measure up.

America has nothing to do with the gentlemen of property who started this country. It is an idea.

Icarus

Hm, I read some of the comments above about the phrasing 'inventing democracy' and while I can't speak about why it bothered others, but it's the same thing than when Clinton said it a few years back...it sounds simplified in a way, and disregarding of previous history.

I realised you meant 'modern form of' democracy or whatever, but it still jumps out to the eye. But then again, I'm Greek, thus more likely to be touchy on the subject. :)

Not to be completely OT, I hope the elections over there are glitch-free.

And I hope the results of the election are "Bush Free"!

People are totally missing the point and taking it out of context.

As far as I'm concerned, America should represent democracy. It's something we're proud of, and valuing democracy is something you can find in both major parties. I think you can stop anyone in the street and ask them, and they'd agree. It's something that if you put it in a movie, most Americans will tear up, or sit up straighter. You can't help it.

So you'd think that democracy would be valued enough, that the country that invented it - and don't split hairs because that's not the point - would be able to safeguard it. That the democratic process is corrupt here for some Americans is too shocking to accept.

In truth, historically there have always been problems; candidates buying votes, or offering "Free Beer!" to lumberjacks on the way to vote; intimidation at the polls (especially of blacks); gerrymandering districts.

But for an American, to hear that democracy is corrupt enough, on a big enough scale, for this to affect the outcome -? It's like hearing your mother has cancer.

For me, this kicks up my irritation with my European friends. Lived there for a while, and I get so sick of the America-bashing. I'm not much of a flag-waver, and I've always been ultra-liberal leaning towards FDR-style Socialist Democracy. I've always been critical of the leadership of this country. But democracy, boy, that's the sacred cow.

Icarus

Oh, I can totally understand why people would be so upset at a possible corruption of the democratic process, or feel a general pride at the notion of said process.

For the record, I wasn't bashing, nor do I normally bash the US-or any country as a whole. I bash Bush, certainly, but he offends me at my very core.

Anyway, sorry it I came off as confrontational, wasn't my intent. I do hope your elections will be Bush-free.

Oh, it's all right. I was being over-sensitive. :)

Icarus

The letters drew outrage from many Republican lawmakers in the House of Representatives...."For over 200 years, this nation has conducted elections fairly and impartially, ensuring that each person's vote will count," said Rep. Stephen Buyer during debate on the floor of the House of Representatives. "Imagine going to your polling place on the morning of November 2 and seeing blue-helmeted foreigners inside your local library, school or fire station."

And that's what scares me the most. (The attitude, not the foreigners.)

Typical scare tactics, very much in line with Cheney's remarks that electing Kerry is like begging for another major terrorist attack.

So. Pathetic. Even moreso because they often work. Do your own thinking, people, don't let it be done for you!

*departs from soapbox* =)

It's a great tactic, if you think about it, though. ("Terrible, yes, but great...") Can't let any damfurriners into the country to mess with our political process, because, you know, the UN is secretly plotting against us and the French are the minions of Satan and stuff. Therefore, only Americans can provide oversight for American elections; Americans, in all our dumb partisan glory.

Oh yes, an entirely sound and likely successful tactic.

It just makes me want to grind my teeth because I know so many people that seem to enjoy wallowing in ignorance and allowing others to think for them.

At the risk of sounding crazier than I am, I don't really care about the drama in the meanwhile. It won't sway me from voting the way I plan on voting, nor will it intimidate me into staying away from the polls. Ergo, I won't let it affect me. So the U.N wants to step in? Big deal, we might even benefit and not see another fiasco from FLA 2000 that let in Bush by default.

As to the whole 'inventing democracy' thing? No, we didn't invent it orignally, nor were we the first to use the term, but we Americans did create a new breed of it, based on our different culture, religion and ideals.

And yes, there *is* a difference. The 'United States' is a place of corruption, stupidity, and narrow minded tradition. 'America', however, is a place of oppertunity, a place of history and bravery. You don't read about the History of the 'United States' here; you read about American History. About brave people who are willing to improve and who have never lost that spirit of wanting more, wanting better for themselves and others.

Wow, yes. Rambling. I'll shut up now. My history background apparently is showing in full-force by now.

As to the whole 'inventing democracy' thing? No, we didn't invent it orignally, nor were we the first to use the term, but we Americans did create a new breed of it, based on our different culture, religion and ideals.

I don't give a damn because that wasn't the point. I'm dangerously close to telling someone (not you or anyone in particular) to go fuck themselves if they're going to jump all over a simple comment they've taken out of context.

Icarus

Scribe, I'm sorry. I seem to be losing my temper at LJ a lot these days. I'm going here for a break from some RL nastiness and haven't been finding it. I'm not sure if I'm burned out on LJ, burned out on RL, or both.

Icarus

No, no...I understand where you're coming from. You're frustrated that people are focusing on a perceived attitude that comes from taking what you said out of context. I know if I was in your place, I'd be annoyed as well.

I think the misunderstanding came from me trying to address the prevailing issue about it without specifically targeting it to the people bringing it up by posting it in that thread. So really, it's my faux pas there.

I just hope everything gets resolved in your life soon before all that stress burns you out completely. And really, since I should have known better (reading about your temp job horrors and such), I'm the one who should apologize, at least in part. I got a little carried away.

Darn, I'm not getting comments again. I just happened to wander by and see this.

I took a little break from LJ since I was obviously losing patience over little things, and focused on writing Percyness and

interimminister instead. Much fun, and life seems to be perking up a bit. :)

I really appreciate your being so nice about this. After I posted I looked and went "ah hell, what's the matter with me?"

Last day at the temp job: Friday. (whew)

Icarus

The UN like, the UN that appointed Libya to head its Human Rights Commission? On which Zimbabwe, Sudan and Syria sit? (Shall I quote New York Times reporter Thomas Friedman on Syria's torture methods from his book From Beirut to Jerusalem, taken from the Amnesty International testimony of a Syrian student who manged to escape?)

"Whenever a person is tortured…he is ordered to strip naked. Inside the room there is . . . an apparatus called the Black Slave, on which they force the torture victim to sit. When switched on, a very hot and sharp metal skewer enters the rear, burning its way until it reaches the intestines, then returns only to be reinserted."

Yup, nice place, that UN, quite the type to come and give the US lessons.

Oh joy. There's an image to brighten one's day.

Icarus

Well it's good it's that sad. Or else it'd be like last time's. How fun. Fun for everyone.

*resigned with*

I still think there are ballots floating between Florida and Cuba from the last election. :D

Icarus

Have a little politics with your dessert.

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This playful banter, yeah? Just checking :o)

Re: This playful banter, yeah? Just checking :o)

Re: This playful banter, yeah? Just checking :o)

Re: This playful banter, yeah? Just checking :o)

I've been thinking about this...

I had the title above, because I certainly didn't want this to get nasty!!!

Re: I had the title above, because I certainly didn't want this to get nasty!!!

Re: I had the title above, because I certainly didn't want this to get nasty!!!

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Motes, beams, etc.

Re: Motes, beams, etc.

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