icarus | Have a little politics with your dessert.

*thinks*

Nah. Doesn't count. People get to vote or they don't. The democracy idea snowballed, there was the house of commons, but when the US put it into practice, people predicted mayhem would result.

The idea of giving an uneducated farmer a vote at all was appalling, and largely the reason we have electoral college: it was to hedge our bets, just in case the "ignorant" were swayed to put someone in charge who didn't belong there.

No one believed the system would work. Least of all world-wide.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Greeks' democracy... it was the aristocracy that had the vote, correct? Shepherds and people who belonged to a certain household were automatically represented by the head of that family?

Icarus

Whereas in the US, women were allowed to vote from day 1 :oP

Oh no, women were too delicate to vote anywhere. They had to be coddled and cared for, the little poppets.

Just a question: why has this comment about the US provoked such a sarcastic response? Is it the general anti-American feeling overall? I had another comment here from someone I don't even know that I deleted. Your tone isn't nasty, but this shouldn't be such a hot button.

Every invention is built on other inventions. Saying that someone invented "X" does not negate the fact that "Y" is what led to it. Political theory is the same.

Icarus

I dunno, if Skuf's European, we sometimes get narked off when people suggest that the US was a democracy before, say, England. Besides, neither was a democracy- the US is a federal republic, and England was a republic for about a decade whilst Cromwell was in power. Before then, it was constitutional monarchy.

It's not so much American-baiting as a general wish that people would stop assuming that America is the only/first/best democracy. Besides, the issue wasn't so much with uneducated farmers- after all, a good proportion of the Founding Fathers were highly educated, massively rich farmers, whilst yeoman farmers in England had been voting for years. The problem was often more that it was one of the first times that an English-speaking colony broke away, helped by another colonial empire (the French), in an act of rebellion shortly after the debauchery of the French Revolution.

Oh hell. I've waffled badly. Forgive me. Two years of highly enthusiastic politics teachers does that to a boy.

Ah, waffling is good. It's also called seeing the situation from all sides. :)

It's rather like the annoyance of the Bhutanese whenever Tibetan Buddhism is called Tibetan Buddhism. The same form of Buddhism was found in Bhutan first, and Tibet routinely tried to annex Bhutan over the centuries. So Bhutan is no big fan of Tibet.

But on the world stage, Tibet's the big star, so the term that stuck in the western countries is Tibetan Buddhism. It rankles every time they hear it.

Icarus

I realised that Americans make a distinction between "United States" the place, and "America" the archetype, the ideal. I waxed poetic here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/icarusancalion/277082.html?thread=3259482#t3259482). I can see why there's confusion if people don't realise we mean two different things.

We actually switch words when we're talking about one or the other. There's a little sloppiness, but generally that holds true.

The concept "America" is synonomous with democracy, freedom, etc. So we'll never have a problem with saying "America" invented democracy. But if someone stood up and said the United States invented democracy, we'd come to a screeching halt and say "whoa, hold on here."

Like most archetypes, "America" is a very amorphous idea invoking many broad ideals.

Icarus

I'm really, really not attacking or trying to be nasty - I lived over 2 years in the States and many parts of it I love to bits!! So the following is just my honest opinion and feelings, etc., etc.

why has this comment about the US provoked such a sarcastic response? Is it the general anti-American feeling overall?
Yeah, I'm afraid it is. Well, not anti-American - just anti-"We Americans are the best evah!" The United States are at this point the biggest political (and probably cultural?) power/influence in the world - no contest. But it wasn't always like that. But you often get Americans in the media and in RL who seem to believe it is so. Aaand from over here (Europe) that's kind of a joke:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Greeks' democracy... it was the aristocracy that had the vote, correct? Shepherds and people who belonged to a certain household were automatically represented by the head of that family?
And in the States, women couldn't vote - and slaves and Native Americans? I don't know about the last two, but I kind of doubt they were allowed to vote? In other words, not that much more democratic than Ancient Greece?

Anyways - yeah, I totally admit, I boggled at your statement, because from my POV it's just not true. But it sucks to have someone attack your nationality - and of course you have as much right as anyone to be proud of yours (if I was born in the States, I'd be damn proud to be American - I happen to be born in Denmark, so I'm damn proud of that; I'm just that kind of person), so I understand you feeling defensive. Sorry, *sniff*. That's not a sarcastic *sniff*, btw.

I really suck at internet communication :o/

If you've only lived in the United States, then you've no way to understand.

You think this is arrogance, but that's not true. You've taken this statement as a Greek and therefore out of context.

This is a cultural value that runs pretty deep. I tell you, you put a speech about democracy in a movie, and just watch how the Americans respond. Watch. People either tear up, or sit up straighter.

Most Americans feel that this country should represent democracy. That this is what we're about, above and beyond the petty politics and personal issues and splits between the Republicans and Democrats. It's a common thread that holds this country together: this belief that the definition of America is democracy.

People who react to this comment don't understand Americans. We use the two words differently. There is a distinction.

The United States is a place, it has 52 states, and it's leaders fuck-up, and usually fuck-up big.

But "America" on the other hand, means an ideal, Jeffersonian in tone and scope. It's the Declaration of Independence, it's the Constituation, it's the Bill of Rights. "America" is what this country should be about, what we're shooting for.

This isn't arrogance. This is saying that we value something that is bigger than these 52 states, and our own plot of land, and this or that politician in office. It's bigger than ourselves. This is good, not arrogant. It's not about us, you see.

America to Americans is an archetype.

No one here would say the United States invented democracy, no more than we invented freedom. But "America" is something bigger.

Don't tear down the ideal and the value, thinking we're saying we're better. Values and ideals will always supercede the people who are trying to represent them.

It's sounds to me like Europeans don't know the distinction between these two words, and may not even know that - in various versions- we hold these ideals, represented by the word America.

Icarus

Hmm, see, that's the thing, we don't know the difference. Say America, and we think of two British colonies, one of which buggered off to rule its own affairs. So even then, we see America as part of a progression, not a revolutionary concept, even though it was. If that makes any sense. America is a cutting from the big tree of Europe, split off to do its own thing in the better soil of revolution, ditching the old soil full of the poisons of monarchy and the class system, and whilst the American shoot has grown as tall as the original tree, it's not as wide or as deep-rooted. It rankles that we're just as tall but the US is claiming all the glory.

We're not brought up, especially in England, to see free speech and universal suffrage as either a God-given right or as a crowning ideal. In fact, I'm no longer sure of what Europe, or even England is supposed to represent. It's not just democracy, it's not Major's warm beer and old maidens cycling through the mists, it's not Blair's multicultural Cool Britannia, it's not even Shakespeare's proto-colonialist power fighting the French for the good of the King. It's all of those stretching back past the Romans to the refugees of Troy, an example to Europe yet entirely alien, a certain decency and love of the underdog, yet imperialist, rotten to the core by class struggle and patronistic outlooks. We've gone through the idealism of the first Elizabeth and the decadence of the Regency, through the cynicism inculcated by two World Wars, up to a time when we're comfortable to be the godfather of greater nations, battered, poorer, wiser.

John Bull is dead, long live John Bull!

Oh hell, I just got carried away again...

You've taken this statement as a Greek and therefore out of context.
It sound like you're saying I'm Greek? I'm not, I'm Danish. We didn't invent democracy, either - heck, we didn't even invent the ombudsman, although lots of Danes think we did.

I completely agree that democracy is embodied in the idea of America. And Americans put a new spin on/re-invented democracy in 1776? Sure.

But the country that invented democracy? No. That's what I objected to, as the statement made it sound like the concept didn't exist at all until 1776. That's all.

Well, you could make a case for inventing the Protestant work ethic that paved the way for the social change of the Industrial Revolution. If we're going to talk about inventing concepts at all.

But the country that invented democracy? No. That's what I objected to, as the statement made it sound like the concept didn't exist at all until 1776. That's all.

Tough. You're missing the point, zeroing in on a phrase you don't like and taking it out of context. That's what I object to, and I continue to do so.

The point of course is that America, which should represent democracy, should not be in this position of having other people watchdog to make sure we uphold it. That's all.

Icarus

Ok.

Didn't exactly close that underline tag, did I?

God, the whole point of this was to tell people about some relatively good news that at least someone was watching the Florida elections this time. Sheesh.

Icarus

Have a little politics with your dessert.

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This playful banter, yeah? Just checking :o)

Re: This playful banter, yeah? Just checking :o)

Re: This playful banter, yeah? Just checking :o)

Re: This playful banter, yeah? Just checking :o)

I've been thinking about this...

I had the title above, because I certainly didn't want this to get nasty!!!

Re: I had the title above, because I certainly didn't want this to get nasty!!!

Re: I had the title above, because I certainly didn't want this to get nasty!!!

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