Research, lovely research: Toronto and kid memories.

[icarus]

While I wait with bated breath for my betas (I sent the next scene of Out Of Bounds ten whole milliseconds ago)...

... I have been doing research on neighborhoods in Toronto.

My childhood memories of Toronto are just that: kid memories. Kids remember places. Their sights and sounds and magic... but not how they got there or how they're connected.

Here's the dismal neighborhood John once lived as a student at U of T, on Yonge Street not far from Church Street (the local gay neighborhood):
http://www.boldts.net/TorYs.shtml

This is where John's apartment was more recently (theoretically) at the Annex, and thank you to by archae_ology and meredydd_recs. It's perfect:
http://boldts.net/TorAn.shtml

According to recommendations by archae_ology, Rodney should live in the Church and Wellesley area: http://boldts.net/TorCw.shtml

But... some back story that's only mentioned once in the story: It was Rodney's grandmother, not Rodney, who picked out the house. She accepted Rodney being gay, but it's very unlikely that she would have picked the prime gay neighborhood. Also, Rodney's place is an area where the property values were lower (and boon-docky) back in the 80s and became more valuable over time. She made a good deal (I've mentioned it in OoB "Thank you, suburban sprawl"). So I'm still looking for Rodney's neighborhood. meredydd_recs recommends down by the lakeshore, though I'm waiting for more clarification:

Here's University of Toronto, where John once went to school:
http://www.boldts.net/TorB.shtml

Here's Church Street, the gay neighborhood where John and Rodney both have spent remarkably little time:
http://www.boldts.net/TorCw.shtml


Any real Canadians or persons who've been in Toronto in the last ten years (unlike me) are welcome to comment. *rolls out the red carpet*

Comments

[archae-ology.livejournal.com]

If you want to know anything about U of T (aka the school that ate my soul) feel free to ask. Also? Housing costs in the area where you put John are through the roof. It really is a rather expensive area, and you can't find an apartment for under about $700 a month, even for a bachelor. Also? Not so seedy. *nods*

Oh! Also, Queen and Coxwell? Expensive as all hell now because of the location and the age of the houses. Most go for 500,000+ now. Church? Some sections lovely, like I mean stunning (also, Ryerson University is there), but other bits are seedy (I occasionally go the clubs there).

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Good, and thank you. Where would you put John? *g*

[archae-ology.livejournal.com]

John? Well, the Annex. I have a ton of friends who live there, and if you're splitting housing costs with a few friends it isn't bad at all. Kensington Market and Chinatown in general can be affordable if you find a good place.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Okay, cool. The Annex it is. *g* Thank you.

As for Rodney, I'm looking for an area where housing would have been cheaper back in the 80s, something that suburban sprawl would have grown towards between the 70s and 90s.

[archae-ology.livejournal.com]

Welcome! :D

Hmmm. Well, I know my Mom lived around the Coxwell and Danforth area for a decent price back in the 80's. Same with my Dad. So that area would make sense. But right at this moment in time, I could see Rodney living in the Church-Wellesley area. I mean it has it's nice areas and it's shitty areas, but all in all it's quite lovely.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'm looking for photos. Has this area improved over time? Because I've written the story as one where Rodney's grandma (not Rodney) bought a house that suburban sprawl took over, over time.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I wrote it with my dad's neighborhood in mind. He had a place that was down towards the end of Queen Street E, near the Beaches, in the early 80s. By the mid-80s gentrification was under way and property values started to rise... so I'm looking for that pattern, only a lower end neighborhood (or boondocks neighborhood) moving up to a mid-income, more in demand neighborhood.

Asking too much?

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Oh, and where would you put Rodney, too?

[meredydd-recs.livejournal.com]

In the Annex, alot of student housing and such in the area that's really kinda frighteningly cheap for Toronto. Basic area is a bit North West of the uni, between Bloor St and St. Clair St.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Cool! Thank you. How about Rodney? It would be a residential, median income-type place.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Okay, cool. The Annex it is. *g* Thank you.

As for Rodney, I'm looking for an area where housing would have been cheaper back in the 80s, something that suburban sprawl would have grown towards between the 70s and 90s.

[meredydd-recs.livejournal.com]

Maybe some of the areas by the lakeshore. They used to be alot cheaper since alot of them were farther away from the city core and the university

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

So north and east of the Beaches area?

[meredydd-recs.livejournal.com]

I think so, not so familiar with those areas but my roomies parents live down there, and she descried it as sort of an older part of the city where alot of middle income people settled

[droolfangrrl.livejournal.com]

yay more out of bounds

[mklutz]

I'd say the Annex would be awesome for either of them, but there's also High Park for when Rodney is rolling in money-- huge million-dollar houses and fancy apartment buildings next to the actual park, and there are a few subway stops in the area.

If John had a starter house he might live in the BloorCourt Village-- it straddles the lines between Portgual and Korea and gets pretty intense during the World Cup. Mostly it's nicely sized houses, many of them semi-attached. It's got schools, parks, good food, small shops, a library, a mall, and a few subway stops all within five minutes walk of Ossington and Bloor.

If Rodney feels really pretentious, the Lakeshore or King Street areas (near University through Bay, I would say) have some obnoxiously expensive lofts and penthouse appartments. It's all right next to the business district, the entertainment district, and the courts.

Or if John feels artsy and hip he could live on Queen West, which has good food and a lot of speciality clothing stores, art galleries, CityTV, the Paramount building (Movie theatre/bookstore-- now renamed Scotia something or other...). At street level it's all the latest in whatever the kids are into; up above it's all nice apartments. Most of the time walking around you see hipsters and it's not that far from the club district (about 5-10 minutes walking), but it's an awesome part of town. I'm a huge fan of seeing a movie, buying some books, and then eating crepes.


I also think John might be the kind of guy to dig through Honest Ed's and get lost and wind up buying a one-dollar light-up blinking picture of The Last Supper and maybe some toilet paper. Rodney probably finds that ridiculous and would be busy at The Beguiling-- the best comic book store in Toronto, right behind Honest Ed's on Markham.

[littlemousling]

Ditto Bloorcourt (that's where I live) but it's not a bad choice for Rodney, either. It's definitely an up-and-comer, not too far from downtown but housing prices still run in the $4-600K region. I can see him having bought a place in the 70s that's worth the moon now, in a good location.

I'd say the only issue with imagining them both very much in the city is how much driving they do. Toronto's a VERY car-unfriendly city---not Boston or anything, but NYC-like if you're near or on the main subway lines. Top-notch public transportation, awful traffic and parking.

So Rodney, alternately, could be way out in North York, where my girlfriend's family lives. Very nice, very suburban, used to be affordable but sprawl has definitely changed that---and if you live in a house in North York, you have (and need) a car.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I remember the joys of finding parking downtown. Sheesh. Great way to add a half hour to your trip.

Earlier on, both John and Rodney refused to drive downtown.

But they end up driving a lot because ice rinks are never located downtown. Rinks are just too big. Since they go to the rink every day....

Which opens another question: where's the rink?

My first thought is the southern end of Scarborough? It has to be far enough that John and Rodney are forced to drive, while close enough that John could get there easily by bike/bus/other transport if he had to.

[littlemousling]

Well, it's Canada, so there are rinks of a sort everywhere. I mean really everywhere! Something like 50 outdoor rinks in the city.

But big fancy ones they might train at? Hmm ... there's UT's Varsity Arena, but I seem to recall the one they favor in the story is privately owned. Maybe McCormick Arena? They do lessons and stuff, which would fit. But it's out on the west side, which makes Scarborough seem unlikely. Makes Bloorcourt ideal, though! ;) Or nearby High Park, for Rodney especially, that's a nice area indeed.

I think they could both be feasibly out in the West end---John on Roncesvale or something, in a cheap apartment, and Rodney up in High Park in a pretty standard house that's worth a mint now.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Crap. Why didn't my reply post? *makes growly noises at LJ*

[mklutz]

Hey, I live in the Bloorcourt, too! (Which is why I think it's awesome-- I'm a little biased.) But yeah, Toronto isn't really built for cars, though you can rent one for a day pretty easily and cheaply. The subway, streetcars, and busses are all excellent though-- I'm a big fan of taking the TTC despite fare hikes.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

But yeah, Toronto isn't really built for cars

Oh, I know that. I've even said it in the story:

To John, the best thing about his mirrored sunglasses was he could lean back and just seem like he was chilling out, when in fact he was watching everyone around him. Or more specifically, Rodney. The wide gestures as he talked, the little bounce to his step when he'd hopped up into the Queen Street trolley -- or streetcar, rather. His friends in college had laughed at the Yank calling it a "trolley." Parking in downtown Toronto was something John hadn't wanted to bother with.

Like I said, my dad has lived in Toronto since the late 70s, and I spent much of my childhood in the Beaches area, blocks from Queen Street E. I used to take the streetcar down Queen Street. (Later he moved between Kingston and Gerard, not far from Victoria Park Ave.) But again, I was a kid at the time and didn't view areas in terms of real estate. Though I remember that when my dad bought his house by the beaches it was officially considered Scarborough and a million miles from Toronto... and then slowly gentrification set in.

Also, from where my dad lives, he drives everywhere. But since he owned his own company he had a coveted parking spot.

Bearing in mind that Rodney's 3-bedroom house was purchased in the mid-80s and Out Of Bounds is set in 1999 -- well, was Bloorcourt an up-and-coming area nine years ago?

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

Well, let's see. John was living in a cheap apartment by himself when he met Rodney. There were a lot of elderly people in his building which was a little run-down.

Rodney has been living in the same 3-bedroom house his grandma bought in the mid-80s. It was considered an out-of-the-way location and relatively cheap in the 80s, but suburban sprawl has taken over and turned it into a good location. Not multi-million dollar, but no longer the boondocks. The neighborhood has lots of families with elementary school-age kids, if that's a help.

Icarus

[mklutz]

There are some cheap apartments near Spadina on the edge of Chinatown, and the College St area is full of students and student housing which might work out. An apartment in a building right by High Park station actually runs about 1500/mo (One bedroom), versus say renting part of a house (I pay 500/mo). There are also some inexpensive apartments on Ossington & Dundas that if you split between two people wind up being 500/mo each.

The Bloorcourt village definitely has a lot of families with elementary age kids-- I actually live just down the street from three grade schools and a few blocks away from two highschools. When you hit Bloor at the end of the street it's all small butchers and independent grocery stores, that kind of thing-- very good for young couples.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'm reading this message second. Bloorcourt sounds like a perfect area then though a little closer to the city than I expected. (It doesn't make sense to drive from Bloorcourt unless the rink is further outside the city.) Do you happen to know what it was like in 1999? Out Of Bounds is set about ten years ago.

[mklutz]

It's more up-and-coming now than it was in 1999, but the schools and butchers and the library-- all that was already there. It seems like the schools and things were built in the mid 70s as far as I can tell, so a decade or two later it would definitely be full of young families. If you get closer to Dufferin it's a little sketchy, but closer to Ossington it's very nice. The Portugese have definitely been here for at least ten years.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

That might be perfect. Boy, I need a lot of pictures though, because I've been describing the area just north of the Beaches till now. And the driving is accurate for east end, not so much for Bloorcourt, I imagine.

I think I need to go visit my dad and cruise around the city. I've cheated till now and run on my memories of Toronto which are mostly east end, the Beaches and up, and then downtown (Yonge & Bloor, Dundas, Spidina, Church St, and I think... was my dad's little company on King Street? I don't recall).

[mklutz]

I can take some photos for you, since I live here-- that's no problem. Tell me if there are any other places in the city you'd like shots of.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's a lot to ask, isn't it?

[mklutz]

Not really, I mean, I'm going to be walking around all over the place anyway when I go places.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Okay, if this is what we settle on. I emailed my dad and he suggests Pickering. What do you think?

[lunasky.livejournal.com]

What about Rodney living near the Scarborough bluffs?

http://boldts.net/Scar-Bluffs.shtml
The prices have skyrocketed as the city has sprawled. My best friend's house was just off Kingston Road, and I don't think it was very expensive when they bought it, but has gone up considerably. She's walking distance to the bluffs through a ravine in her back yard.

Or I'd go with living near the beaches. There are lots of apartments that are near main streets, on top of stores and stuff. :)

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Okay, sounds nice. Skyrocketing sounds good.

Rodney owns a 3-bedroom house though, not an apartment.

Back story: As a teenager in the late 80s he wanted to buy a sportscar with his winnings. Grandma quickly took the money away and bought the house. The place would have been considered far from Toronto in the 80s, and relatively cheap. Since then it's become a much more valuable piece of property (though not million-dollar).

[lunasky.livejournal.com]

I'd go with the Scarborough bluffs then. I'd be about a half hour car ride (depending on traffic) between the Annex and the Bluffs, and it would have been considered on the outskirts of town back in the 80's.

[twocats.livejournal.com]

If you want them living close to each other, there are some areas just north of 'The Annex' which are a wonderful mish-mash of housing. I lived in the 80's in an area just by Christie/Davenport where within 10 square blocks you had everything from 'Social Housing' to solid Blue Collar/2nd Gen Italian Immigrants to Multi-Million Dollar houses. (Suprisingly, the neighbourhood was pretty darn tolerant of folks of 'alternative lifestyles', be them sexual or otherwise) It literally varied block to block, and still does. There are a fair number of the 'single family' homes that are formally or informally divided into multiple apartments/suites/students sharing still, as it's less than 30 min bus ride to the downtown, and within 10 min bus ride of the subway. Like everywhere in T.O. housing values have risen, and a place that would have been modest in the 70's can now be worth $$, especially if it has a nice yard/backs onto parkland. And I love the pics of the neighbourghoods. I know them all, and they made me smile :-)

t.c.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I know them all, and they made me smile :-)

*smiles at you*

Good thoughts. They're within driving distance but not very close, no.

Important point: Rodney does not live in a gay neighborhood. His grandma bought the house and it's just a regular small family neighborhood. Rodney's always a little bit cautious about his neighbors' reaction to his being gay and has never advertised it.

And for your help, (thank you) you get back story:

As a teenager in the late 80s Rodney wanted to buy a sportscar with his winnings. Grandma quickly took the money away and bought a house for him instead. The place was considered far from Toronto in the 80s and relatively cheap. But since then it's become a much more valuable piece of property (though not million-dollar). Rodney's comment in Out Of Bounds, "Thank you, suburban sprawl."