icarus | Joe Biden.

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Joe Biden.

Joe Biden just won my heart.

I agree with him on foreign policy, respect him as senator. But my perspective on him just completely changed.

There's a real person under there.

ETA: More detail, for those who didn't want to watch the debates.

I showed up with a fork and knife for some Palin schadenfreude pie. But she did well, disappointing me greatly. Yeah, she was vague and folksy and didn't seem to be saying very much, but there was a lot of feel good language that made you smile now and think later.

At first she came across as the "real person" in the debate.

Then, after she'd casually rattled off her lines about her family for the third or fourth time, Biden came back with, "You know, men are single parents, too" and the genuine choking up over his son...

... suddenly, she started looking like a carefully manufactured product, while he was the real thing.

I didn't expect the debates to showcase Biden.

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He got me at the "I know what it's like to be a single parent" speech.

Yeah. He took the usual "family, family, family" pablum and turned it into something real.

Hoo-rah for someone who doesn't think family = mommy, daddy, 2.5 kids, and the dog.

I agree, so much. was meh, but now I'm totally smitten with Biden.

I respected him before. Now I like him.

I have respected Biden since he penned the Violence Against Women Act. Now I'm glad everyone else sees what I've been yelling about for years.

I didn't know he did that. I was impressed with him when I watched him on the foreign affairs committee, he asked all the hard questions and wasn't intimidated by anyone. Now? I really like him.

I don't know. I - somehow, for the first time - just got a sharp dose of the difference between "me" and "the people the Democrats think can get elected" (gay marriage, anyone? what about protecting weak lil' Israel?) so I was less than impressed with much of the debate. I mean, I'm going to VOTE for them, I was planning to (there is nothing, literally, that McCain/Palin can do to change my mind) but I don't like a fair number of their planks, and somehow Biden's answers, maybe because they were closer to what I think is likely to happen (ie, are we actually going to go to war in Pakistan? I would strongly think not.) emphasised that.

That said, the response about being a single parent was great. And I've respected him for a long time, I just don't agree with him and Obama on a lot of issues.

It sucks that the Democrats have to take into account the anti-gay crowd. But looking closely at what the two of them said, Palin was talking about nodding and being nice on the street. Biden was saying that gay partners should have equal constitutional rights. It's the back door into gay marriage.

Politician: "Are you for equal constitutional rights for gay partnerships?"
Average voter: "Sure, I mean, people should have the same rights."

Politician: "So gay partners should have the right to visit their partner in the hospital?"
Average voter: "Of course!"

Politician: "They should be able to raise their children if their partner dies?"
Average voter: "Of course."

Politician: "And they should inherit their shared property from their life-long partners?"
Average voter: "Well, yes."

Politician: "They should be covered under their partner's insurance?"
Average voter: "Yes."

Politician: "And they should be able to file a joint tax return so that their combined Social Security income can support each other in their old age?"
Average voter: "Well, yes, of course."

Politician: "You know that you just defined the legal rights of marriage. Everything beyond that is religion."
Average voter: "Huh?"

Politician: "You just said they should have every right that is offered to married couples."
Average voter: "But... they shouldn't get married in churches and stuff. That's just weird."
Politician: "Actually, a lot of churches have been marrying gay couples for decades. They're ahead of us on this point.

"But religion's not my job. My job is the law. Thanks for telling me gay couples should have the same legal rights as married couples."

Average voter: "Uh...."
Gay marriage activist: "But you didn't say you were for gay marriage!"
Politician: "Yes, I did."

Oh, agreed. I just don't like their need to separate their plan from marriage in such strong terms. If you're not redefining marriage to be heteronormative, then you're allowing a marriage, especially since the distinction is the religious ceremony. But I've long believed that this country needs a system of civil and religious ceremonies, so there's that.

I just dislike that god forbid we use the word that we mean because Joe Sixpack's gonna go runnin'. Words are important.

I agree with you there. I just *winced* when he said it. But I'd sneak up on them about gay marriage and win, than be blunt and lose.

^I'd rather sneak up on them, that should say.

Also, I would so like to have a civil marriage ceremony. Not everyone likes religious hocus-pocus -- and not every religion even has a wedding ceremony.

And when people make up their own ceremonies, the result is just... I'd rather have them jump out of planes in Elvis costumes. At least then the tackiness is entertaining.

My we-designed-it-ourselfs marriage was different! We had blindfolds and green-haired priestesses and BLOOD! Yeah!

We had a civil ceremony and it was perfect for us. A couple of our guests said it was the best wedding they'd ever been to.

That's not all the rights of marriage.

Privileged communication is one of the key rights of marriage, which cannot be assigned by any other contract between the two people. (And one of the largest hurdles for poly-marriages; the gov't is not gonna allow gang members to all marry each other so nobody has to testify against each other.)

But of course, it doesn't get mentioned, because the only reason it would come up would be if one person IZ A KRIMNAL, because of course, nobody would need to hide any information if both people were innocent.

Legal privilege is the first thing I bring up when people talk about "civil partnerships are just like a marriage."

Well, I don't really know them all. Not being married myself.

Oh, being married, I don't know them all. The "privilege communication" bit comes from watching Law & Order--married people can't testify about what they've said to each other. Not even if they want to. Communication between spouses is somewhat more protected than communication between client & lawyer, or doctor & patient.

However, communication between parent & child is NOT. Which is rather fucked up.

I can see how that would be important in child abuse cases though.

However, it plays havoc with the purpose of privilege: to encourage free communication between some people. Lawyer communication is privileged so that people will talk to their lawyers, not try to hide stuff that might get them in trouble and (1) shoot their own case in the foot (of little interest to society at large) or (2) fail to help the lawyer figure out what "justice" is and track down the Real Bad Guys, whoever those are.

Doc communication is priv'd so that people will tell their doctor what really caused their problems, so we don't have untreatably-sick people spreading diseases.

Priest communication (some of it) is priv'd so that people will get counseling (of sorts), because criminals who have confessed and "been forgiven by god" are less likely to go on rampages than those who have not. (Or so the theory goes.) Counselor/psych communication, ditto: society has decided it's better for people to *get help* for their griefs & stresses, than to be able to prosecute every minor crime.

And spousal priv exists to support family unity, 'cos society figures it's better to have stable families than people who are so paranoid that their spouse might turn them in that they go crazy. HOWEVER... parents not having priv'd communication with their kids, means that if the kids commit a crime, or saw someone commit a crime & tell the parent, the parent can be subpoena'd for that.

So parents who want to avoid turning in their own kids need to tell them "don't talk to me about your teenage problems & what happens to you. Talk to a lawyer, or a priest, or your doctor... don't tell me what you saw." Which, umm. Not the most sensible arrangement.

Yes. THAT. I choked up a little too. That was amazing.

I just watched it again, and... he still got me.

I felt the same way when his son was speaking at the DNC - it's such a heartbreaking story, it really makes me damn near tear up. And good God, I dare someone to try and call that trying to score political points.

He was clearly just trying to tell his story, but could barely get through it.

Re:hoping for Palin pie, this pre-debate comment seemed to nail it for me:

Watching tonight's debate is like watching NASCAR. You claim you're interested but you really just want to see a wreck.

I was struck by Biden's smile as he listened to Palin blather on about something or other. I got the strongest image of a big gentle dog putting up with a little yappy puppy biting and jumping at it.

We had a debate watching party in my flat in London just now, with baked goods, and all the girls want to marry and or be bffs with Biden. He almost cried, you could HEAR it in his voice. He is a fabulous person.

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Joe Biden.

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