icarus | Nekosmuse is my new god.

Hrmmm.

I feel like I have to speak out in defense of epithets. They're perfectly nice, useful little things when they're not being exploited by idiots. They can break up a section of narrative involving multiple actors of the same gender, they can be used for exposition, and--well, how the hell else am I supposed to refer to the guy whose name nobody knows yet?

Used sparingly and with an obvious referent, I don't think epithets are inexcusable. They're certainly preferable to the Baroque feats of grammar sometimes necessary to get around them.

I shall rephrase then: though shalt not abuse thy epithets. In Beowulf and the Lord of the Rings for example, they are used to great effect. But man... when people use them because they don't want to say the name Draco again - egad.

Icarus

I agree with that part, but I don't think it's a point related to epithets per se. It's more like another manifestation of thesaurus abuse, when writers use the most bizarre words, phrases and constructions known to the English (or any other) language rather than repeat themselves. Since epithets are a very visible manifestation of it, they get a bad name.

And the thing about fanfic is that you're more likely to get away with it than profic; because your can assume your audience knows your characters as well a you do, your epithets almost always have very obvious referents, just not in the text. I had no trouble with the HP essay that Neko linked, even the exaggerated examples. Someone who doesn't follow HP would've been way more lost.

If you condemn epithets, you declare yourself cleverer than Homer, Virgil, Dante, or Shakespeare - all of whom used them with gay abandon. The point is not letting them get in the way of the developing sentence. Personally, I feel that your source is fanatical and wrong-headed in this matter, and I dropped a very broad hint to that effect in her LJ. Speaking of which, what is wrong with characters reading poetry or singing at each other? That is plain silly. She has read a couple of poorly conceived scenes and has abstracted a rule from them.

I think it's a handy guide for new writers, and pretty funny to boot. These are all things that are easy to screw up, but can be done successfully. I follow no rule-book slavishly, and broke all my own personal rules of writing long ago. Never write rape? Never write first person? Chan- ick? Parent-child incest- ew? Never write PWPs? Oh yeah, it's all gone by the wayside.

Icarus

Actually, I think her point about poetry and song is that it's fantastically hard to do well (especially with contemporary/pop music) and it's frequently out of character. Her comments seemed to be addressed specifically towards the Lost fandom, you might note.

Yeah, that's true. But the post is still quite funny and I think accurate in that new writers abuse epithets terribly. I think another way writers abuse epithets is that they use a characteristic to denote the character that doesn't add to the story.

For example, calling Gandalf "Stormcrow," well, that brings a lot to the Lord of the Rings. The sarcasm and the very different view of Gandalf's help is eye-opening. Or calling Aragorn 'the ranger' as in 'the ranger sought ahead for a way through the marsh,' that's useful. It makes sense that the character whose POV we're seeing would think of Aragorn as a ranger in that context.

But very often epithet abusers will have the POV character think of Draco as 'the blond' in an intimate situation. That doesn't work. It adds nothing to the story, and it's too distant for that moment.

I've used epithets in situations where we don't know anything about the character except their appearance. The brown-haired guy sitting next to Harry in Cursed Artefacts For Sale. I chose that epithet with care. It tells you something about Harry's attitude towards the auction: he doesn't care, he doesn't view the others as competition; he's seeing the auction through a rather mundane perspective.

Let's see... where else... oh yeah - the second part of Reunion, Name Dropping. I use it because I use a vary limited outside perspective, witnessing two men meet outside a fine restaurant, one dark-haired, the other blonde. The reader already knows that Draco was going to meet with Snape, but since the story pertained a lot to gossip and appearances it makes sense to start out with how this appears.

Primer to the Dark Arts, Harry thinks about Snape (right after the relationship had begun), oh what was it? Something to the effect of 'the man was paranoid.' The epithet there signals that Harry has started to think of Snape as a man, not as his teacher.

So I'm agreeing with you. In a rambling sort of way. :) Epithets can add layers of meaning, but I hate it when they're laid on with a trowel, pointless, or inappropriate.

Icarus

Tolkien, heh? Am I sensing a pattern here? :)=

Oh yes. I've read the Lord of the Rings about 37 times.

Icarus

o.O

Is that even possible?

*is in awe*

I read it fourteen times between the age of 13 and 17, actually. Something in art class or literature would remind me of a scene, and I'd go back to check and Fwoop! - I'd be swept away and read it again.

Icarus

Well, that's one thing we have in common. I take it you've read The Silmarillion? That's what sorts the men from the boys 8-).

Oh yeah.

Twice. *grins*

And I used it as a reference guide for a lot of my LotR meta. I used to post as Marileangorifurnimaluim on the Barrow-downs (a really active and popular Tolkien forum).

Icarus

Actually, you're Catholic. There are ton of Catholics in the LotR fandom. Ever hang out on the Downs?

Icarus

Er, no. Well, it fits, JRRT being one of us weirdos himself. Although I have to say that I always found a rather troubling discrepancy between his religion and his imaginative world, which, in LOTR at least, has little to suggest Christianity. The Silmarillion, in this, is rather more credible - not only because of the great Creation scene, but also because it shows how human and even elven efforts, unaided by Divine help, not only do not work but consistently make the situation worse - "unless the Lord build the city, the workers labour in vain." However, I never found the imaginative hooks in Tolkien's mythology that I did in JKR's. It just does not stimulate my invention to the same extent. I love reading it, but I do not feel any need to add to it. But that's just me, I suppose.

Tolkien's work is very complete. I wrote a few Frodo/Sam slash stories, but after that I was satisfied. I mostly wrote essays and discussed the LotR.

By the way, my mentor in high school was a former Catholic monk.

Tolkien himself was not trying to write a Christian story, but rather a fairy tale based upon the roots of English myth. The Lord of the Rings owes a lot more to Beowulf than it does to the Bible, and in fact, because he was writing a fictional pre-history it deliberately avoids modern Christian mythos.

Tolkien bemoaned the fact that England's myths were largely French and Greek in origin and set out to write a truly English epic. Which is why he relied so heavily on Beowulf and his research into Anglo-Saxon mythology.

Icarus

I once did an incest fic. At least a couple of people complained because the warning took off the surprise of the central relationship. The poor frickin' writer is damned if s/he does, damned if s/he doesn't. Mind you, I think that your source was really aiming at bad writing, where offensive features become more offensive by being treated without respect (to use her instance, there is a rape scene and then someone else soothes the victim by taking him to bed in turn - which is not only grossly objectionable, but not at all credible). However, bad writing with an advisory is only bad writing with an advisory.

I think warnings are important, even though when I warn people for rape in Beg Me For It I know I'm losing a lot of readers who would otherwise like the story (since the rape doesn't actually occur), I don't want to yank people out of the story like that.

Things like rape, incest, chan, they shock and offend readers if they don't already know what they're getting into. The sense of shock is more than just moral offense: you actually lose the impact of the story. A writer needs empathy, communication with the reader. The reader steps into your little world, trusting you as a writer to not lead them astray. Allowing themselves to believe fiction, dropping their barriers.

A writing instructor once told me "never trick the reader." I didn't know why until I came across a story recently where all the facts presented in the story misled me. It deliberately led me to specific assumptions - and then the writer revealed their denouement. I was left with a bitter taste in my mouth. I did not feel the writer was clever, I felt deceived.

Not warning for offensive content is the same thing. The reader trusts you not to do that to them.

It's rarely beneficial to have the shocking content come as a surprise. Most good stories don't need that surprise to still work for the reader, and I'm not a fan of shock-value fiction, even though some friends of mine write it.

FYI, I'm just coming out of a big wankfest and I'm not really in the mood for an intense discussion. I've been doing so much of it for the last couple days.

Icarus

I'm just coming out of a big wankfest and I'm not really in the mood for an intense discussion. I've been doing so much of it for the last couple days.

*pets you and gives you cookies*

Seriously. I'm not joking here.

Wonder if this was an argument in that wankfest, though:

Did Shakespeare warn anyone before Titus Andronikus?

Just saying :)=

Oh, the wankfest revolved around law, copyright, plagiarism, morality, the etiquette of friends-locked posts, combat vs. support soldiers, military law vs. civilian law, venue and jurisdiction, the proper procedures to follow before filing a DCMA violation of copyright claim, natural law vs. historical jurisprudence, then pointing out the inaccuracies, hypocrisy, manipulation, and deceptiveness of the person presenting themselves as knowledgable on subjects they'd only learned from links on the internet, evaded direct questions, who eventually created a false journal mimicking the posts of the individual she was criticizing (copied the layout, picture, and entire threads) -- and then claimed to be her.

Wacko.

But she sounded stable when I started the argument, if determined to be right at all costs.

Did Shakespeare warn anyone before Titus Andronikus?

I have a better example: did Sophocles warn for incest in Oedipus Rex?

The answer for both stories is that they didn't need to: the themes were already (at the time) well-known. In fact, the authors drew upon this knowledge in order to heighten the irony and tension.

Icarus

Oh, the wankfest revolved around[...]

O.o <-- ah, my recent love for this icon

I have a better example

Heh, a better example indeed.

the themes were already (at the time) well-known

And isn't this so with that disclaimer stuff, that it is the sign of the times we live in? Warnings and disclaimers for adults. For mature, responsible people who watch where they tread and are able to make choices and learn from mistakes?

Saw a reality accident movie once. Got traumatized. Won't see any of those again.

Saw a Steven Seagal movie once, with a torture scene in it. Got traumatized. Won't watch Steven Seagal movies again.

That would be my choice. The trauma is also mine.

But I'm not made of sugar and I won't dissolve in the rain.

And now, for something completely different, because I don't want to start a discussion since you're tired of one:

Aliens? Lava? J/D? Ring any bells?

:)=

O.o

Ha. A wank of epic proportions. Last I looked it was up to 238 comments in one journal entry alone.

mature, responsible people who watch where they tread and are able to make choices and learn from mistakes?

Yes, that would be the case if we didn't have the convention of warning for certain types of content. Since we do, readers expect this.

I'll tell you though that I did have an incest fic where the opening would have been spoiled if I'd warned for it. I took a risk and wrote in the summary (on a site that has lots of sexual content at an R-rating) Adult subject matter. You have been warned.

It worked. That was enough for people. It helped that the incest was clear within the first page, so those who didn't like it hadn't made a commitment to the story yet. I don't think I would have done it if the incest appeared later.

Aliens? Lava? J/D? Ring any bells?

Oh yes.

wildernessguru and I are going to watch a couple Stargate episodes to get me in the mood. But I've gone to bed every night thinking about the next scene, and I'm itching to write it.

I'm going to be good and do my homework first.

Icarus

the wankfest revolved around law, copyright, plagiarism, morality, the etiquette of friends-locked posts, combat vs. support soldiers, military law vs. civilian law, venue and jurisdiction, the proper procedures to follow before filing a DCMA violation of copyright claim, natural law vs. historical jurisprudence, then pointing out the inaccuracies, hypocrisy, manipulation, and deceptiveness of the person presenting themselves as knowledgable on subjects they'd only learned from links on the internet, evaded direct questions
Sounds interesting. Almost wish I'd been there - I could have contributed some much-needed extra noise. 8-)

It was interesting, or I wouldn't've kept writing. But now I'm very, very tired. Heh.

Icarus

I came across a story recently where all the facts presented in the story misled me. It deliberately led me to specific assumptions - and then the writer revealed their denouement. I was left with a bitter taste in my mouth. I did not feel the writer was clever, I felt deceived.
I would like to be clearer about this. What you described seems akin to the sort of thing that would be regarded as a triumph in detective fiction, and that is the strength of Agatha Christie. Have you ever read her better novels? I ask because I would like to know in what way features that make her work so satisfying appear, in this experience, so disappointing. Where is the difference? I am really interested to know.

Bear in mind it's 3am here, but hopefully my answer will be coherent.

Different genres set the reader up for different expectations. In mystery, the reader knows they're supposed to hunt down clues, and they take great satisfaction in cleverly disguised hints and a plot they couldn't figure untangle.

In other genres such as romance, we expect to be able to trust the writer, so we take what they tell us at face value. So we feel like fools when the writer's sneaky.

It's interesting the cues that the writer uses to indicate the genre and set up the expectations of the reader.

Icarus

Oh. Good night. Have a decent rest. You shouldn't have stayed up this long only to answer me!

bad writing with an advisory is only bad writing with an advisory

And that should be printed out and plastered onto monitors of fan fiction writers out there. And out here :)=

*goes to print and find duct tape*

Erm... was that me? I did put a non-con warning on mine, but... :S

No, it wasn't you, rest assured. For all that I've written it, I avoid anything with the rape label. Which ironically means I would never have read some of my own fics. :D

Icarus

I have the same thing. I'll write rape and some incest, but I don't go out of my way to read it. Glad to know mine was adequately warned, though. :)

I was looking at your user info and the bit about the filtered posts. Now, you haven't posted many locked posts [lately?] and I have a memory like a sieve: am I on the friends filter? Can I ask to get on it? I definitely want to read about your cat's opinion of baths :o)

I think you are, but I'll check.

I stopped using the filter for the most part because my sense of paranoia was fleeting and temporary. :D Also, when the main list is 600 people and the filter is 400 people, what difference does it make? *snort*

I'm almost sure you're on it though.

Icarus

*sporks epithets with a great big spork-like implement (i.e. a spork)*

Special circle of hell reserved for those addicted to describing Harry as the emerald-eyed boy/youth/man/wizard.

Commends the... the... sporklingness. Er.

Dear lord. Did you really say "emerald-eyed youth"? Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse.

Icarus

That is because nobody uses "emerald" for eyes in real life. It's still a matter of bad writing being bad writing. If you said "the green-eyed lad," especially in a context where the narrator might not know that much about Harry himself, there is nothing much wrong about it. Ive done it, for instance, in Strange Encounter, where a person who knows nothing about wizards ends up with the Trio and their friends. (Largely OT: ever since I found out that Hijja has green eyes, I have been trying to find a context to refer to her as "the green-eyed genius from Tubingen". That's got me satisfied now.)

Did you know that I was an exchange student in Reutlingen? I was only a few miles away from Hijja.

On the rest, well yeah. That's the whole point of the post. It's not for the good writers to follow slavishly, but for the crap writers who consistently abuse all of this. I mean, when commandment 8 or 9 is "their" and "they're" do not mean the same thing! -- it's pretty clear what level of writer Neko means.

Icarus

Nekosmuse is my new god.

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Completely OT and half-embarrassing:

Re: Completely OT and half-embarrassing:

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