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Apr. 9th, 2006 12:00 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
icarusPet peeve time!
I confess, kids in fanfiction bug me.
It's not that I don't like kids. We get along just fine, kids and I. It's just that there's a certain -- certain... people write the kids like they're extensions of their parents.
They look like their fanfiction parents.
They act like their fanfiction parents.
They have similar talents as their fanfiction parents.
They aren't treated as if they are OCs, when really, they ought to be.
Why are they written this way?
Folks, the human method of procreation is designed to mix and match our DNA in such a way that we have a random slice of our parents' genetic code. In addition, that randomization expresses different dominant and recessive traits. Additionally, while I do not believe in Tabula Rasa (no insult to the fine fanfiction writer of that name) I do believe that our experiences do have an impact. There is no way that the fanfic kid's experiences are the same as their parents, so their personalities are going to be radically different.
Why the hell do people go ga-ga over fanfic kids who look or act like their fanfic parents? I'm not into the ga-ga over kids thing anyway, kids are just people as far as I'm concerned, but there's something troubling in the fact that writers forget this fact.
I actually brought my MPreg Reunion to a screeching halt over this issue. Someone sent me a photomanip of what the baby (which I never promised would ever exist) would look like, combining traits from Ron and Draco. Augh!
An entire chapter of that story was devoted to creating kids that were real people and not just one-dimensional extensions of the fanfic parents. Ron's four kids were not cute. Not a single one was like Ron. His youngest little girl was pampered and hurting and a little angry over his divorce, demanding his attention when he was trying to talk to Harry. Ron couldn't control his two oldest -- he was too mellow a parent -- and the third middle child was bright, quiet, and simmering with resentment. They had little lives of their own, and they were pretty miserable.
When Draco's daughter turned up, you were going to find a rigidly correct little stick, wan and smothered by the expectations of her Dad. She didn't have Draco's feisty rebellious spirit so the same parenting that led to Draco's constantly forgetting his father's advice and battling Harry turned her into a virtual paper doll.
But I couldn't battle the kid-lovers. They wanted Ron and Draco's kid to be just like them, ignored the real kids, and panted after the baaaaaby.
Sometimes I strongly suspect that people love babies because they can project their own image of who that person is onto them. Which is precisely why I like young kids over babies: when they're that tiny it's hard to tell who they are.
I confess, kids in fanfiction bug me.
It's not that I don't like kids. We get along just fine, kids and I. It's just that there's a certain -- certain... people write the kids like they're extensions of their parents.
They look like their fanfiction parents.
They act like their fanfiction parents.
They have similar talents as their fanfiction parents.
They aren't treated as if they are OCs, when really, they ought to be.
Why are they written this way?
Folks, the human method of procreation is designed to mix and match our DNA in such a way that we have a random slice of our parents' genetic code. In addition, that randomization expresses different dominant and recessive traits. Additionally, while I do not believe in Tabula Rasa (no insult to the fine fanfiction writer of that name) I do believe that our experiences do have an impact. There is no way that the fanfic kid's experiences are the same as their parents, so their personalities are going to be radically different.
Why the hell do people go ga-ga over fanfic kids who look or act like their fanfic parents? I'm not into the ga-ga over kids thing anyway, kids are just people as far as I'm concerned, but there's something troubling in the fact that writers forget this fact.
I actually brought my MPreg Reunion to a screeching halt over this issue. Someone sent me a photomanip of what the baby (which I never promised would ever exist) would look like, combining traits from Ron and Draco. Augh!
An entire chapter of that story was devoted to creating kids that were real people and not just one-dimensional extensions of the fanfic parents. Ron's four kids were not cute. Not a single one was like Ron. His youngest little girl was pampered and hurting and a little angry over his divorce, demanding his attention when he was trying to talk to Harry. Ron couldn't control his two oldest -- he was too mellow a parent -- and the third middle child was bright, quiet, and simmering with resentment. They had little lives of their own, and they were pretty miserable.
When Draco's daughter turned up, you were going to find a rigidly correct little stick, wan and smothered by the expectations of her Dad. She didn't have Draco's feisty rebellious spirit so the same parenting that led to Draco's constantly forgetting his father's advice and battling Harry turned her into a virtual paper doll.
But I couldn't battle the kid-lovers. They wanted Ron and Draco's kid to be just like them, ignored the real kids, and panted after the baaaaaby.
Sometimes I strongly suspect that people love babies because they can project their own image of who that person is onto them. Which is precisely why I like young kids over babies: when they're that tiny it's hard to tell who they are.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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Date: 2006-04-09 07:17 pm (UTC)As far as fic!kids go, I think they often arise from the same instinct as the Mary Sue. Get two characters to shag (by any means necessary) and then use heredity as an excuse to mix 'n' match their favorite set of character traits regardless of how much sense it makes. "Oh, she's brilliant because Hermione's her mum, and she's a badass because Snape's her dad, and she's sexy because Draco is...also her dad...it was a complicated relationship..." I think psychologists call it the fundamental attribution error.
Personally, I loved Ron's kids in Reunion and would love to meet Draco's daughter. The focus of the story isn't the baby, it's Ron and Draco. ::issues a cyper-poke to the baby hounds::
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Date: 2006-04-09 07:24 pm (UTC)Please tell me I don't do this.
Or on the other hand please tell if I do so I can bang my head against a wall a bit.
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Date: 2006-04-09 07:31 pm (UTC)She's not in fandom now but I'm sure she remembered my awkward squawk, "Uh, that's a really great that you, uh, went through so much trouble to uh, to do that picture, but oh my god there's no way genetically for those traits to go together and hell, I didn't promise that there would ever, ever be an MPreg baby, only that they'd try and aiiiiiiiiiiiii!"
Icarus
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Date: 2006-04-09 07:32 pm (UTC)Kids are often the biggest sues going, I think it's because the author senses that only the most vitriolic critic will dare flame over a bad kid depiction, and therefore out pops the inner Suethor.
Take Snape kids, for example (in het), always and invariably hideous child prodigies. I read one fic where the brat was kidnapped and I was praying the DE would off it (I'm not really a bad person, honestly). And so would any sane reader. The spawn was hellish.
Kids are not that much like their parents, necessarily. Which is a good thing. As a parent, I'd not really want another mini-me in the house.
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Date: 2006-04-09 07:36 pm (UTC)Thank you! *clutches at your skirt, or jeans, or pyjama bottoms* It was, but it started to seem like the MPreg fan was conditioned to expect the baby to be the central figure and there was no way I could fight that.
I think some parents have babies so they can project--it's really quite sad.
Frightening, but true. My best friend when I was a kid really seemed to think this and I could never understand it.
As far as fic!kids go, I think they often arise from the same instinct as the Mary Sue.
Some of it I think is just a lack of imagination, too. They need a baby for the story, and the baby is Draco's so therefore.... *rolls eyes* They don't even notice how similar the kid is to dad, or assume, "well of course she would be."
Icarus
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Date: 2006-04-09 07:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-09 08:10 pm (UTC)Which is precisely why I like young kids over babies: when they're that tiny it's hard to tell who they are.
I think it'd probably be harder to write a baby as having a personality because they can't really talk or do things. Is that what you meant?
OTOH, my daughter exhibited very distinctive personality traits from the time she was maybe 2 weeks old and, while she's obviously grown and matured (she's 20 now) and learned to be more gracious, etc., the strong-will and stubbornness and other things she displayed when she was a baby are still with her. My son was different from her from the day he was born. He's always been more easy-going and, in some ways, more compliant or even passive about things unless it's something he cares about deeply. My daughter will fight to the death over a very small thing--even now.
But I couldn't battle the kid-lovers. They wanted Ron and Draco's kid to be just like them, ignored the real kids, and panted after the baaaaaby.
Maybe you should write the story the way that you want to, anyway. It's your story. *g*
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Date: 2006-04-09 08:12 pm (UTC)*is saddened that Reunion was stopped, because it was interesting, and the kids made it more so*
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Date: 2006-04-09 08:20 pm (UTC)But I did curse up a storm and decide that I was never, ever going to have Ron and Draco successfully produce that baby -- or better yet, I'd end it just before the baby was born, ha.
Icarus
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Date: 2006-04-09 08:38 pm (UTC)One of the best "kids" fic I ever read was Cesperanza's Due South fic, With Six You Get Egg Roll. One of the kids was Fraser's natural child and the rest were adopted. They were angry, frightened and fucking survivors. I was agog at the skill she used creating them, and their effect on Ray and Fraser. I've yet to read anything like it since. Talk about being their own people.
I am distraught that you aren't going to be finishing the story because of some people's insistence on perfect kids. Just tell them to fuck off, that your vision is yours and if they want something else to write their own story.
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Date: 2006-04-09 08:55 pm (UTC)They have similar talents as their fanfiction parents.
I don't think that's so very farfetched, though. I mean, in my own family my father was a math/computer person and my mother is a writer and artist. Out of three kids, I inherited my dad's computer genes, my mom's writing genes and a bit of her art genes. My brother got my mom's writing genes like whoa. And my sister is quite good at math (unlike the rest of us), has a good smidge of writing genes, and is a fabulous teacher, like both our parents were for years.
I also knew a family growing up where there were 12 children and each of the children as well as their parents were highly talented musicians. I mean highly. As in several of them went to top-rated music schools.
So I really do believe that talents and predispositions can be passed genetically. It doesn't necessarily happen with everyone, but it's possible. Therefore, I guess having Harry have a kid who's good at Quidditch or Hermione raising a swot or Snape having a spawn who had a talent for potions wouldn't really be surprising to me to read.
My own personal pet peeve with badly written children (well-written children I adore) is that so many people don't know the proper developmental stages. There's one child I've read who was supposed to be 15 and acted like she was developmentally 8. And it completly freaked me out.
It's like...er...hello? If you're going to write a kid, either spend some time around them so you know how certain ages act or look up some basic adolescent psych texts and study the developmental ages. Please. For the love of God. Please. *whimpers*
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Date: 2006-04-09 08:55 pm (UTC)I think the problem you've experienced is inherent in mpreg though. Your particular reasons for writing Reunion were excellent ones, because you were exploring the characters and the practical problems involved, and that was how you managed to get me to read Ron/Draco mpreg. Believe me, for no other reason or person would I have done that *grin* If the story takes the route of mpreg being a serious, practical problem to be solved and investigates the issues around it thoroughly, it can be very interesting. I recently challenged a friend to write an mpreg of that kind and also challenged myself to it - not in HP fanfic, but an original story.
But I think many mpreg authors write it because of the, er, cuteness factor. They're writing - in their own mind, if no one else's - a death defying romance and romantic writing in western society has a history of deathless romance = marriage + babies. The fact that their romantic story involves two blokes is just a hurdle to get over, and in HP fanfic there's the ready solution of magic. I don't think the issues are an issue (so to speak) for these authors; they are writing Romance and a baby is just an accessory to that romance, a part of the fluffy cuteness that is the main characters' Twoo Wuv, for like-minded readers to coo over.
I don't go for that kind of thing personally, because I'm not particularly romantic. Or not romantic in that way, anyway. I'm too busy wondering how (a) a bloke gets knocked up in the first place, (b) what orifice, if any, it'll be born from, and (c) the difficulties involved in a male pregnancy, not least of which would be dealing with the reactions of everyone around him. (c) is usually the one I wonder about the most. I suppose you could spend the whole nine months sequestered at Malfoy Manor, but personally I think that's a bit of a cop-out ....
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Date: 2006-04-09 09:22 pm (UTC)Myth #1: the pregnancy is all about the baby.
Nope. This story was all about Ron and Draco.
Myth #2: by becoming pregnant, the pregnant character is suddenly special and the center of attention.
Here, Ron's mostly getting attention because he's in the middle of divorce from his wife and his job is going to shit. The baby's pretty much irrelevant.
Myth #3: all the real world concerns vanish to make room for the holy baby.
Oh no, the real world problems are the reason why Ron and Draco try this bone-headed stunt and continue regardless.
Myth #4: the baby is the product of a special connection between the two lovers (one of whom is often conveniently dead).
They're having the baby for stupid reasons. Ron wants nine months off of the chaos of his current life. Draco wants to free himself from his current wife.
Myth #5: having the baby is a noble and wonderful thing.
It's probably a big mistake for two guys from such different backgrounds to attempt this for such selfish reasons.
Myth #6: the process of pregnancy is extremely important and the world will stand aside and marvel.
No, most people will think Ron's an idiot for trying while his friends worry he's being used.
Myth #7: the pregnancy initiates the pregnant into a mystery of the universe.
Nope. It's just uncomfortable, messy, and the rest of life goes on around him regardless.
Myth #8: the relationship either stabilizes, becomes strengthened, or fades into the background during the holy pregnancy
Oh god this couldn't be further from the truth, if anything the impending baby highlights all the problems and makes them worse.
Icarus
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Date: 2006-04-09 09:27 pm (UTC)I was praying the DE would off it (I'm not really a bad person, honestly). And so would any sane reader. The spawn was hellish.
I can so see that. :D
Icarus
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Date: 2006-04-09 09:57 pm (UTC)They're having the baby for stupid reasons. Ron wants nine months off of the chaos of his current life. Draco wants to free himself from his current wife.
This was one of the things I loved about Reunion. Their reasons for doing it were completely and utterly bonkers.
*grin*
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Date: 2006-04-09 10:09 pm (UTC)oh yeah, just look at the Barrymores or Baldwins. Your environment has an awful lot to do with where your interests lie and how your talents will express themselves.
I love, love, love Shallot's Hypatia (daughter of John and Rodney in "A Beautiful Lifetime Event"). OTOH, I don't particularly like mpreg. Shallot's worked because of the technology, and I was already familiar with the concept of uterine replicators. And it was more about them discovering their relationship, and less about the baby.
My own daughter entered the world with an opinion. She expressed it early and often, with much encouragement from me, and 16 yrs later, is still doing so. The first morning she was on this planet, my DH was entering the room for the first time that day. She was lying on my chest, head turned away from the door. He knocked, started entering and said, "how're my girls?" She did a *push-up* and turned her head toward him before lowering herself back down. WE were dumbstruck. This is not normal for a baby less than 24 hrs old. Our pediatrician thought we imagined it.
She also is very musical, sensitive, dependent like dad, and tends to be the responsible caregiver with the sex-positive outlook, like mom. She's a girly-girl, loves pink, and doesn't mind camping. I'm a tomboy, hate pink, and think dressing up is fun once in awhile. She's got a touch of my SAD, but nowhere near as much as her brother, and in her baby pictures, she looks like me. Nowadays, she looks more like Julia Roberts.
Babies are people. They act and seem more like regular people when their parents encourage them to be themselves. If they don't get that encouragement, it takes a lot longer for their selves to shine through. So in fanfic, a kid who is really a Mary Sue, or really a parental clone will never ring true. Icarus, don't let a subset of under-experienced readers dictate what you write. Tell your stories. I've seen enough of your stuff to know that you have good stories, and will always have an appreciative audience. (and I haven't even read the one you are referencing, ::G::)
I know you don't know me, I only friended you to keep up with "Out of Bounds," expecting to unfriend when you finished, but I've been enjoying your posts so much, I may stick around.
~goldy
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Date: 2006-04-09 10:47 pm (UTC)I'm all for giving up my seat on the bus for the Pregnant One, but someone still has to do some work while everyone else is standing aside and marvelling.
As far I've noticed, people gawk, but there isn't the air of "specialness" that a lot of young women (at least the ones writing MPreg) seem to expect.
Icarus
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Date: 2006-04-09 11:38 pm (UTC)As for artist talent, it does tend to flow in families, but sometimes I wonder if it's less rare and more that most people who have latent artistic ability don't have an opportunity to develop it in our society. We might be seeing a social phenomenon more than a genetic one. The opportunity to develop artistically is put into to good soil, so to speak, and then the rareness of that is set on a pedestal that encourages the kids to keep going. Coming from a Waldorf school where art was something that pervaded every class, I find it difficult to say that this or that kid is artistically gifted, since I've seen fine artwork done by kids who were largely the class jocks.
Back to fanfic... I think there's a lack of creativity when fanfic kids are written to be so similar to their parents. I can see in A Beautiful Lifetime Event that Hypatia would imitate Rodney because heck, when she was growing up he had all the answers to the "why" questions. No doubt she was impressed.
What doesn't make sense is when it's automatic: Snape's kids are always potions prodigies. Look at the Weasley family. We believe in them, yet is there any connection between the kids' talents and their parents'? No. Charlie loves dragons, Bill's a curse-breaker, the twins talented inventors... of all the kids, the only ones who come close to being like Arthur are the twins and Percy. And not by much. That feels real.
Icarus
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Date: 2006-04-09 11:41 pm (UTC)Icarus
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Date: 2006-04-10 01:22 am (UTC)I was thinking more in person. Little babies are cute but you have to squint to see their individual personalities. With small kids it's a lot easier. But you're right, my friend's twin girls were so radically different from each other, even at birth.
Maybe you should write the story the way that you want to, anyway. It's your story. *g*
Oh, a lot of things bumped that story off the top of my to-do list, the uphill struggle with the MPreg fans squeeing over the possible baby was just one factor. I also got deeply involved in writing an RPG so that soaked up a lot of time. Then as a result of the RPG I started writing a lot of Percy, so became less interesting in the MPreg's characters. Then I drifted over to Stargate SG-1, largely because I was too busy to invest a lot of time in my old fandom. Heh. And I ended up investing time in SG-1 instead of course.
Icarus
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Date: 2006-04-10 01:28 am (UTC)That sounds like such a brilliant story, it's a shame I've barely even heard of the original show.
I am distraught that you aren't going to be finishing the story because of some people's insistence on perfect kids. Just tell them to fuck off, that your vision is yours and if they want something else to write their own story.
There were a lot of other factors mostly involving other projects. I did feel that people weren't "getting it," that the story was failing to deliver the message -- largely because the MPreg fans were conditioned to get a certain product and hadn't figured out that I was writing something else. I got frustrated, back-burnered the thing, and then never got back to it as I drifted off to RPGs and other fandoms. The story's still lingering of course, or I wouldn't be bringing it up now. It has a more likely survival potential than a number of my other fics simply because it's reasonably AU.
Icarus
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Date: 2006-04-10 01:37 am (UTC)MPreg gets weird because a lot of it focuses on the mechanics of a man getting pregnant and often feminizes him to a bizarre degree.
And it was more about them discovering their relationship, and less about the baby.
Exactly! In a way she wrote something similar to what I was aiming at in Reunion, though her story was about bringing John and Rodney together, while Reunion is about messy relationships -- Ron and Draco's complicated relationship (split up, then coming back together ten years later), their divorces, and the mix of kids they already have and class differences and... oh, it's a mess. The MPreg is supposed to be another wrench in the works, but Shalott and were on the same track in the focus on the relationship between the two men.
Icarus, don't let a subset of under-experienced readers dictate what you write. Tell your stories. I've seen enough of your stuff to know that you have good stories, and will always have an appreciative audience. (and I haven't even read the one you are referencing, ::G::)
That's really nice of you. I got frustrated with the MPreg readers and back-burned the story, though the main reason it remains unfinished is, well, distraction. After all, I started writing Percy, and then Stargate SG-1, and then....
Icarus
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Date: 2006-04-10 06:41 am (UTC)Hee! I'm so glad you did. :-)
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Date: 2006-04-10 09:50 am (UTC)I did like a series of articles, though, written by a geek. In one, he talks about parents projecting futures on their kids, and he mentioned that his daughter's two favourite loves seemed to be swinging around any pole that she could find, and taking her clothes off.
In regards to fanfic, though, I especially hate it when authors project their own parenting issues on fandom characters. Obviously there are a lot of parenting ideas/styles/issues that translate very well, but Hermione and Draco's "absolute worst fear coming true" when their daughter walks in on them having sex? Considering that Hermione and Draco have lived through a war, and all that, I think both of them may have very realistic fears of torture/death/truly horrific things happening to their children, and while having little Dramione walk in on them might not be their intention, saying it's their absolute worst fear is going a little far.
In my humble opinion.
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Date: 2006-04-10 12:25 pm (UTC)Really? I read very little MPreg, but the few I've read mostly seem to stop around birth. The baby's barely there, except in a "we must bring this into the world (usually so he can save us all)" sort of way.
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Date: 2006-04-10 03:47 pm (UTC)Icarus
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Date: 2006-04-10 04:05 pm (UTC)I have a story for you, sort of the reverse of this. It's part of the weird disconnect that happens during a divorce. I know a guy whose daughter had been in her career for ten years and was having doubts about the track she was on, approaching 30, thinking of moving.
Her father said, "You never stick with anything!"
She said, "Dad. I've been with this company for ten years."
"Yes, but when you were little you were going to open a cattery. And then you planned to be a James Joyce scholar!"
She said, "Dad. I was going to open a cattery when I was nine. That James Joyce thing was a research paper when I was in high school."
"Oh. Right."
In regards to fanfic, though, I especially hate it when authors project their own parenting issues on fandom characters.
I think that's probably inevitable. On the other hand --
"absolute worst fear coming true" when their daughter walks in on them having sex? Considering that Hermione and Draco have lived through a war...
-- there's an author who hasn't thought this through and would probably be better off writing OCs for her parenting concerns.
Icarus
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Date: 2006-04-10 04:09 pm (UTC)If you're worried about not knowing the show, I'm sure there are a lot of people here, that would be happy to give you a short overview and more you don't need.
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Date: 2006-04-10 07:43 pm (UTC)Anyway, I enjoy stories better when the kids are not like the parents. It is much more interesting.
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Date: 2006-04-10 08:06 pm (UTC)For some reason I could not get the chapters after 5 to work.
Er... that's because it ends at chapter five. I had an idea what was coming next so put a link to the next chapter, but then back-burnered the entire story.
Icarus
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Date: 2006-04-10 09:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-11 05:35 am (UTC)I read Marauder era HP fic, so I'm saved that in this fandom. But I read future fic in Buffy and there are some strange things about kids in that.
It should be an easy thing to avoid in HP, given the range of Weasley children. It should fairly obvious that you can combine family attributes (which go further into the tree than parents) in many different ways.
The personalities of children can be seen to be made up of a combination of family personality traits. But only if you take at least three generations of the family.
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Date: 2006-04-11 06:51 am (UTC)Of course, you realize you've now inspired a next-generation MPreg plot bunny in me? Two entire cliches that I've never been even tempted to write, and by ranting against them you've inspired me.
*sigh*
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Date: 2006-04-11 09:43 am (UTC)Oh well.
That said, ten years seems a long time to be in a career these days. I think that's pretty dedicated. :)
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Date: 2006-04-11 12:28 pm (UTC)I have two children for Remus and Tonks. Iris has bits of her parents traits, but combined they make her a completely different person. If she's like anyone in the Potterverse, I'd say she's a bit like Luna. She likes to think of things most people don't. She's more outspoken about stuff than Remus was, but she's less wild than Tonks.
Rhea's personality hasn't been figured out, but I expect she has some of their traits too, but in different ways.
Lookwise? Iris has dark brown hair, Rhea has light brown hair. Again, they have similar traits to their parents, but the same could be said of anyone related to them.
To use a real life example - me. Which parent I most closely resemble seems to depend on the person speaking, and I have personality traits like both of them. I also have things about me that have nothing to do with them at all. *Shrugs*
That's how genetics works. So no, little James Arthur and Lily Molly aren't going to be exactly like their parents.
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Date: 2006-04-11 09:00 pm (UTC)On the other hand, "Reunion" attracted a lot of readers who don't like standard MPreg fic (like me).
MPreg never did it for me, but I enjoyed the portrayal of Ron and Draco (and Snape and the rest of the gang).
[I've been reading thru these comments looking for the right place to add my "I love the story and hate to hear you abandoning it" me too. And, yes, I've read all the comments above on the current story status... FWIW]
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Date: 2006-04-11 11:45 pm (UTC)It makes me want to go forward with my "Rodney discovers he has a son -- who's a English Lit. major" story.
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Date: 2006-04-12 01:38 am (UTC)I am going to be wildly egocentric and assume you mean me. I looked it up to see if there was a Tabula Rasa, and there are two! A tabularasa (who had about four friends and may be a teenager) and a tabula_rasa, who is a marketing designer with a very scary userpic who looks like he would eat me if he found out I wrote fanfiction.
Which is precisely why I like young kids over babies: when they're that tiny it's hard to tell who they are.
On the downside, when they begin to express their actual personalities it makes them that much harder to dress in humiliating outfits, woe and alas. The writers who forget that kids are people, and let that forgetfulness seep into their fiction, tend to be those who have never parented any of their own, I would posit. Then there are those, like me, whose writing is childfree because are you freaking kidding me?! I do this to get away from the blighters in the first place!