I checked out a copy of ponderosa's artwork (I haven't seen elaboration's) which has recently sparked a controversy and caused her to be banned from Livejournal.
Art Review: Why this one?
I like it. I'm a former artist with over eight years of art training, my father is a professional art director, mom's an interior designer, my aunt's a set designer for London theatre and professional artist in her own right -- you get the idea.
It's gorgeous work with the candlelit chiaroscuro lighting, striking a balance between cartoon and photo realism. The backgrounds are photo realistic while the main figures have accurate proportions but a comic book quality to the buttery smooth shading and certain details: the length of Snape's hands are deliberately exaggerated, for example.
It's a good choice of style to emphasize the fantasy cartoonish quality of the Harry Potter series (Severus Snape? Rita Skeeter? Muggles?) that have become so real to many people and J. K. Rowling's tongue-in-cheek commentary on many real world issues.
There's an emotional maturity to the piece in how ponderosa's chosen to emphasize gesture and line over objectifying body parts. Too many explicit pieces are all about the sexual position, with overdrawn red cocks aimed at the appropriate orifice and little or no emotional content. Ponderosa's piece is erotic and sensual. The balance of power in the relationship -- and ponderosa somehow manages to convey a relationship rather than a one-time encounter via their linked hands and the obviously pre-planned setting – is shifted to Harry, Snape's face shadowed. Harry is exposed as the central figure, through the light highlighting his chest, despite the fact that compositionally Snape is at center.
Interestingly, she chooses to show Harry only half-hard, which is very unusual in explicitly sexual art which tends to glory in the "great big cock." Sexuality is more effectively conveyed here through Snape's position, stretched out and intent, and Harry's posture. Through her use of light and dark your attention is drawn up Harry's chest to his face which is blurred (emphasizing physical experience over emotion), his head tipped to the side, his posture exposed, open and receptive.
There is an unsettling undercurrent of the "older man" teaching the "younger man" about sex, and a greedy possessiveness to Snape's arms as they coil about Harry – made more greedy by the deliberately elongated fingers. This is underlined by the fact that the viewer knows Snape is Harry's professor. You do not get the impression that Snape is a nice man, though this is offset by the setting, which indicates Snape's gone to some effort, and the gentle line of his hands.
The piece does not look like a depiction of a first time. Harry's legs are relaxed and he seems familiar with sex, though he lacks the easy sexual confidence of someone in their twenties or older.
He's young, but I would guess late teens. This is not kiddie porn.
Those who are calling it child pornography have clearly not seen the image (we all like to have opinions on things we haven't seen or researched), or else they blur "child" and "teenager" together into one category -- which I don't. I know what I was doing when I was in my late teens, and it was not rated PG.
Generally on the subject of sexually explicit writing and art, I consider it problematic in our culture we're comfortable with images and depictions of violence yet so many are deeply disturbed by sex. I don't agree with that stance at all. I'll add that everyone in my family feels the same way. I was allowed to watch films that featured nudity when I was young, but violence was prohibited. Many of my father's paintings of my mom were nudes (mom was overweight and as mom put it, "he made fat and the way it hangs beautiful"). I've painted plenty of nudes myself in art classes.
wildernessguru is also sex positive.
For fans of Snape/Harry, ponderosa hits all the right notes. She does not soft-pedal Snape's cantankerous personality. She leaves in that teacher/student edge, playing with the balance of power that for fans of the pairing is its most fascinating aspect. Meanwhile, for those who don't like the pairing, that balance of power is the very reason they find Harry/Snape disturbing.
The piece is erotic yet not flagrant. It seems to me it was reported precisely because it is emotionally powerful rather than just graphically sexual art. It is the best art that causes the strongest reaction.
*smiles* If I posted a Harry/Snape stick figure it wouldn't stir so much as a ripple.
***
The problem with Livejournal's reaction is not what's been posted but that their policies are vague and inconsistent. I have no idea what the range is myself, and I've tried to figure it out. If it were clear that graphically sexual artwork weren't allowed here, then whether I liked ponderosa's piece or not, I would agree that it was against policy. But no one can make heads or tails of the rules -- including Six Apart. They admit the law is confusing and they seem to have no idea how to apply it.
They seem to think putting an LJ Abuse button is a good idea, and haven't learned from Fanfiction.net's experience that it will be abused based on personal vendettas and tastes.
I tested Fanfiction.net's Abuse button by posting, years ago, an extravagantly NC-17 story in a pairing that few objected to, alongside a friend of mine who posted a story that contained only a kiss -- but it was a kiss between Snape and Dumbledore.
Her story was well within ff.net policies. Mine broke them with utter disregard.
We waited.
My story stayed up with (with plenty of hits) with nary a squirm. No one ever said a word. For years. Meanwhile, her story was reported within a few months. So an Abuse button has nothing to do with the law or site policies.
Summing this up: Child porn clearly has nothing to do with the banning. Ponderosa's art does not depict a child. Someone seemingly objected to the teenager/adult pairing -- whether Harry is of age or not would be irrelevant to that objection; he's definitely younger than Snape. The issue also has nothing to do with artistic merit -- ponderosa's artwork is artistically superior, and more subtle than most NC-17 art.
The real issue here is Six Apart's policies. They are so vague and confused and erratic in their enforcement that no one knows what can posted or not. Ponderosa cannot be blamed and should not be punished for Six Apart's unclear policy.
ETA: Germany's Der Spiegel (is more or less like Time magazine) has an article about this piece, and they've included a copy of the picture. If you don't read German (I only understand every 10th word) you can run it through Babelfish for a rough translation.
Art Review: Why this one?
I like it. I'm a former artist with over eight years of art training, my father is a professional art director, mom's an interior designer, my aunt's a set designer for London theatre and professional artist in her own right -- you get the idea.
It's gorgeous work with the candlelit chiaroscuro lighting, striking a balance between cartoon and photo realism. The backgrounds are photo realistic while the main figures have accurate proportions but a comic book quality to the buttery smooth shading and certain details: the length of Snape's hands are deliberately exaggerated, for example.
It's a good choice of style to emphasize the fantasy cartoonish quality of the Harry Potter series (Severus Snape? Rita Skeeter? Muggles?) that have become so real to many people and J. K. Rowling's tongue-in-cheek commentary on many real world issues.
There's an emotional maturity to the piece in how ponderosa's chosen to emphasize gesture and line over objectifying body parts. Too many explicit pieces are all about the sexual position, with overdrawn red cocks aimed at the appropriate orifice and little or no emotional content. Ponderosa's piece is erotic and sensual. The balance of power in the relationship -- and ponderosa somehow manages to convey a relationship rather than a one-time encounter via their linked hands and the obviously pre-planned setting – is shifted to Harry, Snape's face shadowed. Harry is exposed as the central figure, through the light highlighting his chest, despite the fact that compositionally Snape is at center.
Interestingly, she chooses to show Harry only half-hard, which is very unusual in explicitly sexual art which tends to glory in the "great big cock." Sexuality is more effectively conveyed here through Snape's position, stretched out and intent, and Harry's posture. Through her use of light and dark your attention is drawn up Harry's chest to his face which is blurred (emphasizing physical experience over emotion), his head tipped to the side, his posture exposed, open and receptive.
There is an unsettling undercurrent of the "older man" teaching the "younger man" about sex, and a greedy possessiveness to Snape's arms as they coil about Harry – made more greedy by the deliberately elongated fingers. This is underlined by the fact that the viewer knows Snape is Harry's professor. You do not get the impression that Snape is a nice man, though this is offset by the setting, which indicates Snape's gone to some effort, and the gentle line of his hands.
The piece does not look like a depiction of a first time. Harry's legs are relaxed and he seems familiar with sex, though he lacks the easy sexual confidence of someone in their twenties or older.
He's young, but I would guess late teens. This is not kiddie porn.
Those who are calling it child pornography have clearly not seen the image (we all like to have opinions on things we haven't seen or researched), or else they blur "child" and "teenager" together into one category -- which I don't. I know what I was doing when I was in my late teens, and it was not rated PG.
Generally on the subject of sexually explicit writing and art, I consider it problematic in our culture we're comfortable with images and depictions of violence yet so many are deeply disturbed by sex. I don't agree with that stance at all. I'll add that everyone in my family feels the same way. I was allowed to watch films that featured nudity when I was young, but violence was prohibited. Many of my father's paintings of my mom were nudes (mom was overweight and as mom put it, "he made fat and the way it hangs beautiful"). I've painted plenty of nudes myself in art classes.
For fans of Snape/Harry, ponderosa hits all the right notes. She does not soft-pedal Snape's cantankerous personality. She leaves in that teacher/student edge, playing with the balance of power that for fans of the pairing is its most fascinating aspect. Meanwhile, for those who don't like the pairing, that balance of power is the very reason they find Harry/Snape disturbing.
The piece is erotic yet not flagrant. It seems to me it was reported precisely because it is emotionally powerful rather than just graphically sexual art. It is the best art that causes the strongest reaction.
*smiles* If I posted a Harry/Snape stick figure it wouldn't stir so much as a ripple.
***
The problem with Livejournal's reaction is not what's been posted but that their policies are vague and inconsistent. I have no idea what the range is myself, and I've tried to figure it out. If it were clear that graphically sexual artwork weren't allowed here, then whether I liked ponderosa's piece or not, I would agree that it was against policy. But no one can make heads or tails of the rules -- including Six Apart. They admit the law is confusing and they seem to have no idea how to apply it.
They seem to think putting an LJ Abuse button is a good idea, and haven't learned from Fanfiction.net's experience that it will be abused based on personal vendettas and tastes.
I tested Fanfiction.net's Abuse button by posting, years ago, an extravagantly NC-17 story in a pairing that few objected to, alongside a friend of mine who posted a story that contained only a kiss -- but it was a kiss between Snape and Dumbledore.
Her story was well within ff.net policies. Mine broke them with utter disregard.
We waited.
My story stayed up with (with plenty of hits) with nary a squirm. No one ever said a word. For years. Meanwhile, her story was reported within a few months. So an Abuse button has nothing to do with the law or site policies.
Summing this up: Child porn clearly has nothing to do with the banning. Ponderosa's art does not depict a child. Someone seemingly objected to the teenager/adult pairing -- whether Harry is of age or not would be irrelevant to that objection; he's definitely younger than Snape. The issue also has nothing to do with artistic merit -- ponderosa's artwork is artistically superior, and more subtle than most NC-17 art.
The real issue here is Six Apart's policies. They are so vague and confused and erratic in their enforcement that no one knows what can posted or not. Ponderosa cannot be blamed and should not be punished for Six Apart's unclear policy.
ETA: Germany's Der Spiegel (is more or less like Time magazine) has an article about this piece, and they've included a copy of the picture. If you don't read German (I only understand every 10th word) you can run it through Babelfish for a rough translation.
no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 08:50 pm (UTC)They were told no, it was obscene, as it clearly wasn't child porn. Found obscene by the abuse team member who got the report.
Which, um, that's NOT how the Miller test works, guys.
As you say: a rule about graphic erotic content would be one thing, and I'd be less than thrilled, but I would find out what I needed to do to comply, and would try to do so without a reasonable timeframe. A reasonable corporation, making this change of policy, aware as they surely are as a group of the amount of stuff that would count, making the change not as a matter of legal requirement but as (as this is) a matter of an internal decision not to host (clearly defined something X), would post a Great Big Notice that would be hard to miss, and would say, "hi, everyone, please remove this content if you have it by (30 days or something), lock it in ways that conform with the adult content community rules we changed in the FAQ in June without announcing it. During that time frame, we will not act on reports of it because we assume you are working on it. After that time, if such content is reported it will go through the normal Abuse procedure which involves a suspension until material is removed, except in egregious or illegal cases, in which case the suspension will be permanent."
And then make sure it's really hard not to know--put it in News and LJ Biz and so forth, and possibly even, if aware of likely hotspots (which they ARE--the suspensions were both posts at pornish, and clearly they know about that one), notify comm maintainers or individuals.
It took me about ten seconds to work out that was the reasonable course here, so... Bah.
Also, locking my hundreds of community posts? PAIN. IN. THE. ASS.
no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 08:50 pm (UTC)As for your analysis and description of Pon's art, I agree completely. You described it beautifully, and are probably right when you say the emotional charge of the piece is what got it reported. Unfortunately.
At this point, I doubt that even clear policies and apologies from 6A would keep most of us here. It's clear from their actions they don't wish to host material that could hurt their sensibilities (or those of their advertisers), and I expect to see it reflected in their policies. That is, should they ever make them public.
no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 08:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 08:56 pm (UTC)I'm not sure why they haven't done it.
Icarus
no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 08:56 pm (UTC)I'm safe then!
no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 09:00 pm (UTC)It is hard for people who are in multiple fandoms to move unless all their fandoms decide to uproot. I'm simply backing up copies of my posts to GJ (damn, I forgot to use Semagic for this one) and making sure I link stories I post to my website.
Icarus
no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 09:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 09:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 09:13 pm (UTC)Icarus
no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 09:24 pm (UTC)I'm curious as to why different fandoms would be reacting so differently. Is it because maybe the HP fandom is predominantly younger and therefore might be more willing to take things in stride? Or is maybe that the HP fandom feels as if it's been personally attacked, and therefore reacted more emotionally than SPN and SGA, which maybe views it from a more detached viewpoint?
no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 09:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 09:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 09:35 pm (UTC)We haven't been forced out so we have time to decide where or what we want to do.
no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 09:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 09:43 pm (UTC)Now don't get me wrong, there are a lot of sga fans who are archiving and xcrossposting to gj or ij, but for the most part I'm not seeing the huge upheaval that hp fans are going through. But that could be because the sga fandom at least just doesn't want to deal with the hassle of moving until lj takes out a larger chunk of us and it's too inconveinent to stay any longer.
Although there is chatter about a fan run blogging site...
no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 09:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 09:49 pm (UTC)I think there's a lot less fan art for both shows as well. I see photomanips and a few (really good) SGA and SPN (
no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 09:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 11:09 pm (UTC)Icarus
no subject
Date: 2007-08-07 11:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-08 12:38 am (UTC)*shudders*
Without that clarity it is disturbing just how anyone and anything might be up for a target, depending on subjective viewing. I don't trust most viewers farther than I can throw them.
no subject
Date: 2007-08-08 12:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-08 01:03 am (UTC)A site like this cannot go around policing individual entries based on vague TOS. This is a free journaling service. There is a reason many of us stopped using FF.Net. It worries me just how much they will push before fandom has to get up and leave. We keep changing so as to not be evicted all together. But I worry about one, the rights being treaded on without given reasons, and two, what a mass shift will do to fandom. We could lose so much of ourselves across the internet. And how long before the next place does the same thing?
And, as an avid reader and occasional writer, I have infinite respect and love for comm mods. This is such a pain in their ass to have to go through all this. Mods aren't getting paid, but they work basically another job in popular communities. And having all these communities having to be locked down and reworked is like overtime and a half on their asses. I think our mods need a lot of love, but we're all too panicked to notice some moments.
Also, do you know of an off-LJ site where this piece of art can be found? I want to see what all the fuss was about (plus, in all honesty, your description for it sounds amazing). If you'd rather not have a link on your page, could you email me this link, if you have one?
mfantasmic@gmail.com
Thanks.
no subject
Date: 2007-08-08 01:29 am (UTC)And online, invisible viewers are particularly difficult to throw.
Icarus
no subject
Date: 2007-08-08 01:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-08 01:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-08 04:06 am (UTC)oh lord my inner 12 year old has gotten loose again
Where can I see this picture, btw?
no subject
Date: 2007-08-08 04:16 am (UTC)Icarus
no subject
Date: 2007-08-08 07:49 am (UTC)"Does this look like a child to you?"
He squinted and said, "Hmm." And then, "Well... could be."
He finally said he thought it would be more cut and dried than that.
no subject
Date: 2007-08-08 07:55 am (UTC)The copy I was looking at for this review is in a friend's f-locked post. I looked for it on ponderosa121's site but she's moving her galleries right now. I'll let you know when it's up again.
Icarus
no subject
Date: 2007-08-08 08:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-08 03:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-08 10:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-08 10:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-08 10:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-09 12:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-09 01:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-09 11:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-09 02:11 pm (UTC)I'm linking to it in my lj, and thank you.
no subject
Date: 2007-08-09 03:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-09 07:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-09 07:44 pm (UTC)Icarus
no subject
Date: 2007-08-09 07:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-09 07:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-09 08:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-10 12:38 am (UTC)