icarus: Snape by mysterious artist (Default)
[personal profile] icarus
I checked out a copy of ponderosa's artwork (I haven't seen elaboration's) which has recently sparked a controversy and caused her to be banned from Livejournal.

Art Review: Why this one?

I like it. I'm a former artist with over eight years of art training, my father is a professional art director, mom's an interior designer, my aunt's a set designer for London theatre and professional artist in her own right -- you get the idea.

It's gorgeous work with the candlelit chiaroscuro lighting, striking a balance between cartoon and photo realism. The backgrounds are photo realistic while the main figures have accurate proportions but a comic book quality to the buttery smooth shading and certain details: the length of Snape's hands are deliberately exaggerated, for example.

It's a good choice of style to emphasize the fantasy cartoonish quality of the Harry Potter series (Severus Snape? Rita Skeeter? Muggles?) that have become so real to many people and J. K. Rowling's tongue-in-cheek commentary on many real world issues.

There's an emotional maturity to the piece in how ponderosa's chosen to emphasize gesture and line over objectifying body parts. Too many explicit pieces are all about the sexual position, with overdrawn red cocks aimed at the appropriate orifice and little or no emotional content. Ponderosa's piece is erotic and sensual. The balance of power in the relationship -- and ponderosa somehow manages to convey a relationship rather than a one-time encounter via their linked hands and the obviously pre-planned setting – is shifted to Harry, Snape's face shadowed. Harry is exposed as the central figure, through the light highlighting his chest, despite the fact that compositionally Snape is at center.

Interestingly, she chooses to show Harry only half-hard, which is very unusual in explicitly sexual art which tends to glory in the "great big cock." Sexuality is more effectively conveyed here through Snape's position, stretched out and intent, and Harry's posture. Through her use of light and dark your attention is drawn up Harry's chest to his face which is blurred (emphasizing physical experience over emotion), his head tipped to the side, his posture exposed, open and receptive.

There is an unsettling undercurrent of the "older man" teaching the "younger man" about sex, and a greedy possessiveness to Snape's arms as they coil about Harry – made more greedy by the deliberately elongated fingers. This is underlined by the fact that the viewer knows Snape is Harry's professor. You do not get the impression that Snape is a nice man, though this is offset by the setting, which indicates Snape's gone to some effort, and the gentle line of his hands.

The piece does not look like a depiction of a first time. Harry's legs are relaxed and he seems familiar with sex, though he lacks the easy sexual confidence of someone in their twenties or older.

He's young, but I would guess late teens. This is not kiddie porn.

Those who are calling it child pornography have clearly not seen the image (we all like to have opinions on things we haven't seen or researched), or else they blur "child" and "teenager" together into one category -- which I don't. I know what I was doing when I was in my late teens, and it was not rated PG.

Generally on the subject of sexually explicit writing and art, I consider it problematic in our culture we're comfortable with images and depictions of violence yet so many are deeply disturbed by sex. I don't agree with that stance at all. I'll add that everyone in my family feels the same way. I was allowed to watch films that featured nudity when I was young, but violence was prohibited. Many of my father's paintings of my mom were nudes (mom was overweight and as mom put it, "he made fat and the way it hangs beautiful"). I've painted plenty of nudes myself in art classes. [livejournal.com profile] wildernessguru is also sex positive.

For fans of Snape/Harry, ponderosa hits all the right notes. She does not soft-pedal Snape's cantankerous personality. She leaves in that teacher/student edge, playing with the balance of power that for fans of the pairing is its most fascinating aspect. Meanwhile, for those who don't like the pairing, that balance of power is the very reason they find Harry/Snape disturbing.

The piece is erotic yet not flagrant. It seems to me it was reported precisely because it is emotionally powerful rather than just graphically sexual art. It is the best art that causes the strongest reaction.

*smiles* If I posted a Harry/Snape stick figure it wouldn't stir so much as a ripple.

***

The problem with Livejournal's reaction is not what's been posted but that their policies are vague and inconsistent. I have no idea what the range is myself, and I've tried to figure it out. If it were clear that graphically sexual artwork weren't allowed here, then whether I liked ponderosa's piece or not, I would agree that it was against policy. But no one can make heads or tails of the rules -- including Six Apart. They admit the law is confusing and they seem to have no idea how to apply it.

They seem to think putting an LJ Abuse button is a good idea, and haven't learned from Fanfiction.net's experience that it will be abused based on personal vendettas and tastes.

I tested Fanfiction.net's Abuse button by posting, years ago, an extravagantly NC-17 story in a pairing that few objected to, alongside a friend of mine who posted a story that contained only a kiss -- but it was a kiss between Snape and Dumbledore.

Her story was well within ff.net policies. Mine broke them with utter disregard.

We waited.

My story stayed up with (with plenty of hits) with nary a squirm. No one ever said a word. For years. Meanwhile, her story was reported within a few months. So an Abuse button has nothing to do with the law or site policies.

Summing this up: Child porn clearly has nothing to do with the banning. Ponderosa's art does not depict a child. Someone seemingly objected to the teenager/adult pairing -- whether Harry is of age or not would be irrelevant to that objection; he's definitely younger than Snape. The issue also has nothing to do with artistic merit -- ponderosa's artwork is artistically superior, and more subtle than most NC-17 art.

The real issue here is Six Apart's policies. They are so vague and confused and erratic in their enforcement that no one knows what can posted or not. Ponderosa cannot be blamed and should not be punished for Six Apart's unclear policy.


ETA: Germany's Der Spiegel (is more or less like Time magazine) has an article about this piece, and they've included a copy of the picture. If you don't read German (I only understand every 10th word) you can run it through Babelfish for a rough translation.

Date: 2007-08-07 08:50 pm (UTC)
florahart: (Default)
From: [personal profile] florahart
Yes, buried in the news comments somewhere (and OH GOD I don't want to try to find it) is the response someone got when they told Abuse that, oh, HI, that wasn't child porn.

They were told no, it was obscene, as it clearly wasn't child porn. Found obscene by the abuse team member who got the report.

Which, um, that's NOT how the Miller test works, guys.

As you say: a rule about graphic erotic content would be one thing, and I'd be less than thrilled, but I would find out what I needed to do to comply, and would try to do so without a reasonable timeframe. A reasonable corporation, making this change of policy, aware as they surely are as a group of the amount of stuff that would count, making the change not as a matter of legal requirement but as (as this is) a matter of an internal decision not to host (clearly defined something X), would post a Great Big Notice that would be hard to miss, and would say, "hi, everyone, please remove this content if you have it by (30 days or something), lock it in ways that conform with the adult content community rules we changed in the FAQ in June without announcing it. During that time frame, we will not act on reports of it because we assume you are working on it. After that time, if such content is reported it will go through the normal Abuse procedure which involves a suspension until material is removed, except in egregious or illegal cases, in which case the suspension will be permanent."

And then make sure it's really hard not to know--put it in News and LJ Biz and so forth, and possibly even, if aware of likely hotspots (which they ARE--the suspensions were both posts at pornish, and clearly they know about that one), notify comm maintainers or individuals.

It took me about ten seconds to work out that was the reasonable course here, so... Bah.

Also, locking my hundreds of community posts? PAIN. IN. THE. ASS.

Date: 2007-08-07 08:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] orionnoire.livejournal.com
Your test of FF.net's abuse button is very interesting. I wish I could say I was surprised, but it isn't so. 8(

As for your analysis and description of Pon's art, I agree completely. You described it beautifully, and are probably right when you say the emotional charge of the piece is what got it reported. Unfortunately.

At this point, I doubt that even clear policies and apologies from 6A would keep most of us here. It's clear from their actions they don't wish to host material that could hurt their sensibilities (or those of their advertisers), and I expect to see it reflected in their policies. That is, should they ever make them public.

Date: 2007-08-07 08:52 pm (UTC)
florahart: (Default)
From: [personal profile] florahart
"without a reasonable timeframe" clearly should say "WITHIN a reasonable timeframe." Heh.

Date: 2007-08-07 08:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
Which is exactly what ff.net did when they removed NC-17 stories. It's logical and reasonable.

I'm not sure why they haven't done it.

Icarus

Date: 2007-08-07 08:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] scarah2.livejournal.com
If I posted a Harry/Snape stick figure it wouldn't stir so much as a ripple.

I'm safe then!

Date: 2007-08-07 09:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
At this point while my Harry Potter flist is up in arms, my Supernatural and Stargate Atlantis friendslists show no signs of moving. The feeling is we'll face the same problems elsewhere. [livejournal.com profile] astolat recently summed up the majority feelings on this issue.

It is hard for people who are in multiple fandoms to move unless all their fandoms decide to uproot. I'm simply backing up copies of my posts to GJ (damn, I forgot to use Semagic for this one) and making sure I link stories I post to my website.

Icarus

Date: 2007-08-07 09:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
People who complain about an NC-17 stick figure would look like idiots. It's the real art that gets nailed -- especially if it's good.

Date: 2007-08-07 09:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] orionnoire.livejournal.com
I agree with you. But for now, backing everything and posting at many journals at once seems the best solution. In the short time. Eventually, I believe we'll have to get our own blogging site, hosted in a country where the laws are more lenient.

Date: 2007-08-07 09:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
I'm doing a little test. I've posted a copy of my latest update of a WIP on my GJ. I'm going to see how many people elect to click on it there.

Icarus

Date: 2007-08-07 09:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] magic-8ball.livejournal.com
At this point while my Harry Potter flist is up in arms, my Supernatural and Stargate Atlantis friendslists show no signs of moving. The feeling is we'll face the same problems elsewhere.

I'm curious as to why different fandoms would be reacting so differently. Is it because maybe the HP fandom is predominantly younger and therefore might be more willing to take things in stride? Or is maybe that the HP fandom feels as if it's been personally attacked, and therefore reacted more emotionally than SPN and SGA, which maybe views it from a more detached viewpoint?

Date: 2007-08-07 09:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] magic-8ball.livejournal.com
that should be -- "less willing to take things in stride."

Date: 2007-08-07 09:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] presently.livejournal.com
I really really truly love this post for reasons I am unable to explain beyond the fact that you are completely SPOT ON and so to the point about this whole thing. <3

Date: 2007-08-07 09:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
The other fandoms are just further from the epicenter in my opinion. But even [livejournal.com profile] femmequixotic who runs [livejournal.com profile] pornish_pixies isn't advocating an immediate departure.

We haven't been forced out so we have time to decide where or what we want to do.

Date: 2007-08-07 09:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
I'm glad you enjoyed it. I hope ponderosa reads it as well.

Date: 2007-08-07 09:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] plsteward.livejournal.com
I'm thinking it has a little more to do with the fact that both spn & sga have main casts that are well over the age of consent (i a just an sga fan, but from what I've seen on my flist it's true for spn too) & the main body of the fandoms tends towards older fans which means we're mostly not freaked out that trolls are going to get us.

Now don't get me wrong, there are a lot of sga fans who are archiving and xcrossposting to gj or ij, but for the most part I'm not seeing the huge upheaval that hp fans are going through. But that could be because the sga fandom at least just doesn't want to deal with the hassle of moving until lj takes out a larger chunk of us and it's too inconveinent to stay any longer.

Although there is chatter about a fan run blogging site...

Date: 2007-08-07 09:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] presently.livejournal.com
So do I! I do have to say, though, all the spamming of comments people are doing on the various news posts? Totally unneeded. -_- It's making it that much more difficult for LJ to even get to the serious comments (if they're even bothering), plus it's making fandom (as a whole) look completely crazy. Doesn't even matter if it's non-fandom people participating, imo, it's just.. what's even the point of all that? [/random ranting]

Date: 2007-08-07 09:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
I agree.

I think there's a lot less fan art for both shows as well. I see photomanips and a few (really good) SGA and SPN ([livejournal.com profile] ilieberte and [livejournal.com profile] crysothemi) artists, but for television shows, vids seem to take the place of drawn art.

Date: 2007-08-07 09:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
Damn, I got the spelling wrong on both of those:

[livejournal.com profile] ileliberte and [livejournal.com profile] crysothemis.

Date: 2007-08-07 11:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
I rather like it, myself. It acts a temperature gauge on how upset the users are. Statistics, you know? We can always email LJ instead: feedback@livejournal.com.

Icarus

Date: 2007-08-07 11:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] presently.livejournal.com
I suppose that's a good reason for it, lol, I just don't understand why it's all lolcats and ... I even saw some of Shakespeare's sonnets?

Date: 2007-08-08 12:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enname.livejournal.com
Yeh, it is incredibly disturbing that a large amount of this is based on subjective ideas of what makes 'good' art and what makes 'obscene' art, or even what is not 'art' at all. Considering none of the criteria are laid out clearly other than 'no child pornography' and don't seem to be getting any closer to being laid out, and the very murky waters of representation of sex (homosexual and het), nudity, and what not within even whatever that body that is 'mainstream' art...

*shudders*

Without that clarity it is disturbing just how anyone and anything might be up for a target, depending on subjective viewing. I don't trust most viewers farther than I can throw them.

Date: 2007-08-08 12:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enname.livejournal.com
ETA: Especially seeing as how one person was unable to find any artistic merit in ponderosa's image, and image which is kinda jam packed with it.

Date: 2007-08-08 01:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sarcastic-irony.livejournal.com
What I found saddest of this post, I think, was looking at your tags. The fact that we still need "strikethrough" tags still.
A site like this cannot go around policing individual entries based on vague TOS. This is a free journaling service. There is a reason many of us stopped using FF.Net. It worries me just how much they will push before fandom has to get up and leave. We keep changing so as to not be evicted all together. But I worry about one, the rights being treaded on without given reasons, and two, what a mass shift will do to fandom. We could lose so much of ourselves across the internet. And how long before the next place does the same thing?
And, as an avid reader and occasional writer, I have infinite respect and love for comm mods. This is such a pain in their ass to have to go through all this. Mods aren't getting paid, but they work basically another job in popular communities. And having all these communities having to be locked down and reworked is like overtime and a half on their asses. I think our mods need a lot of love, but we're all too panicked to notice some moments.
Also, do you know of an off-LJ site where this piece of art can be found? I want to see what all the fuss was about (plus, in all honesty, your description for it sounds amazing). If you'd rather not have a link on your page, could you email me this link, if you have one?
mfantasmic@gmail.com
Thanks.

Date: 2007-08-08 01:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
I don't trust most viewers farther than I can throw them.

And online, invisible viewers are particularly difficult to throw.

Icarus

Date: 2007-08-08 01:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enname.livejournal.com
Indeed.

Date: 2007-08-08 01:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amanuensis1.livejournal.com
THANK you for this. I have seen so much that speaks of "well, I don't like the artwork, even though I think the right of..." or "the artwork looks pretty controversial, yes, but I support the right of..." or even "wtf he's not underage!" without anyone actually praising the art itself. Such wonderful issues you raise--how it's controversial precisely because it's GOOD.

Date: 2007-08-08 04:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] droolfangrrl.livejournal.com
bhahah "nailed"

oh lord my inner 12 year old has gotten loose again

Where can I see this picture, btw?

Date: 2007-08-08 04:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
I'm not going to link to art that's been specifically banned until I know what LJ's policy on links to off-site work happen to be. [livejournal.com profile] lj_biz's recent post doesn't answer it.

Icarus

Date: 2007-08-08 07:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
I showed it to [livejournal.com profile] wildernessguru. He said, "Well, you know, it is kinda wrong to be drawing little kid's dicks" and so I popped open a copy of it.

"Does this look like a child to you?"

He squinted and said, "Hmm." And then, "Well... could be."

He finally said he thought it would be more cut and dried than that.

Date: 2007-08-08 07:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
Yeah, I still don't know LJ's policy on posting links to specifically banned work. :)

The copy I was looking at for this review is in a friend's f-locked post. I looked for it on ponderosa121's site but she's moving her galleries right now. I'll let you know when it's up again.

Icarus

Date: 2007-08-08 08:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] skuf.livejournal.com
Interesting and well said.

Date: 2007-08-08 03:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] roaringmice.livejournal.com
Another part may be that, because HP deals with underage characters, it has more underage porn, and underage/adult porn. SGA and other fandoms that focus on adult characters have less of that, so may feel at less risk.

Date: 2007-08-08 10:43 pm (UTC)
ext_21906: (Default)
From: [identity profile] chasingtides.livejournal.com
Thank you so much! I can only say that your appraisal of the situation is spot on.

Date: 2007-08-08 10:54 pm (UTC)
lady_songsmith: owl (Default)
From: [personal profile] lady_songsmith
I won't circumvent [livejournal.com profile] icarusancalion's wishes by offering a link, but I will mention that Pond has a website and a GJ and Google is your friend. *nods* Cuz it is a really, really good picture, on sheer composition alone, and oughta be seen. If it says anything about how wonderful the non-porny aspects of the picture are, I didn't even notice until I'd seen the image for the 20th time during this brouhahah where Snape's other hand was...

Date: 2007-08-08 10:58 pm (UTC)
lady_songsmith: owl (Default)
From: [personal profile] lady_songsmith
This is a wonderful review of the piece in question. (I wish someone would review the other one that got banned - I haven't seen that one.) And you're spot-on with the comment about quality art getting the attention. I have seen a number of comments disparaging Pond's work (someone called it a "scribble" and another a "doodle") and they just make my jaw drop. It may not be your cup of tea in content or style, but technically speaking it's an excellent piece. Certainly head and shoulders above most of the stuff that gets posted on the web. Well, you know what they say about the nail that sticks up, I suppose... *sigh*

Date: 2007-08-09 12:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] threerings.livejournal.com
Wonderful post. I have linked to it. I agree 100% with everything you've said.

Date: 2007-08-09 01:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fabularasa.livejournal.com
Yes, I was just moaning and flailing about the loss to multi-fandomness on my journal earlier today. As you say, I think there is just a sense of "they're not coming for me" in the other fandoms. Like you, I don't see a better alternative out there. Wisest course for now seems to be to trim our sails and wait for either more clarifications or an eventual fandom-run alternative.

Date: 2007-08-09 11:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
It is a nice piece. I'd feel safer about posting a link if I'd followed my own advice of a few days ago and backed up my LJ. Heh.

Date: 2007-08-09 02:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] melfinatheblue.livejournal.com
This is wonderfully written. I'm so glad someone came along and said something like this. I looked at the picture and thought "Um, it looks like art to me, but I have a science background and work in IT. I'm not the one to judge. It's lovely, though."
I'm linking to it in my lj, and thank you.

Date: 2007-08-09 03:37 pm (UTC)
love_archived: (Default)
From: [personal profile] love_archived
I'm sorry, this is completely off-topic, but ... I read about this kiss between Snape and Dumbledore. Please may I have a link? <3

Date: 2007-08-09 07:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
ETA: A German blog has an article about this piece (http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,498677,00.html), and they've included a copy of the picture. If you don't read German (I only understand every 10th word) you can run it through Babelfish for a rough translation.

Date: 2007-08-09 07:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
Out of frustration she took the story down. It's by [livejournal.com profile] dien but I'm not sure where the fic is now. This was all back in 2003.

Icarus

Date: 2007-08-09 07:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
ETA: A German blog has an article about this piece (http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,498677,00.html), and they've included a copy of the picture. If you don't read German (I only understand every 10th word) you can run it through Babelfish for a rough translation.

Date: 2007-08-09 07:51 pm (UTC)
lady_songsmith: owl (Default)
From: [personal profile] lady_songsmith
Wow, neat. (I tried it in German, and managed to get the gist of it; too many years of singing lieder!) Interesting article, and I find myself amazed they included the artwork.

Date: 2007-08-09 08:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
Their best point was that it was stupid to say that the piece lacked artistic merit. Now they have to defend their decision based on "artistic merit." Good luck with that.

Date: 2007-08-10 12:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] droolfangrrl.livejournal.com
I was just curious what they were having conniption fits over. It's pretty vanilla.

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icarus: Snape by mysterious artist (Default)
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