Second day of ESL

[icarus]

I discovered something. Last time my student and I ran late by about a half an hour, but she reassured me that it was okay, no problem, no problem.

I found out today that it in fact was a problem.

In our culture of course, if we have somewhere important to be we'll interrupt and so "okay, I've gotta go" and explain where that is, (pick up my son, meet my ride, etc.). That's a trait of an individualistic culture, the task takes precedent over the relationship. People can break off a conversation to leave without being rude.

China (like Tibet) is a collectivist culture. A personal schedule isn't as important as the needs of the group, your friends, your teachers. This makes sticking to a schedule while you're over there damned near impossible (unless it's a larger group and everyone's going). My friends and I used to joke "oh, we're on Tibetan Time," which meant 3 o'clock could mean anything from 3:30 to 6:00. Ish. But could potentially mean 2:45, so look sharp.

For her personally, running late wasn't a problem. But she couldn't tell me without being inconsiderate and rude that she needed to pick up her son from daycare.

Of course in China, picking your kids up late isn't such a big deal. Everyone understands the schedules need to be loose and "oh my class ran late" is perfectly acceptable.

But down in the good old American daycare... it turns out she had to pay an additional $4.00 for the extra time. For her to even mention it to me, that must have been a bit of an affront.

I think of all the times that my friends were frustrated with "they should have said so!" in the past, and am grateful that I have a little experience with this. I just wonder how I can explain it to her with her current limited English vocabulary. The combination of being isolated by her English and these confusing different customs must be really frustrating. I mean, those people in the daycare must have seemed unreasonable and rigid and perhaps rather selfish.

Comments

[liasantana.livejournal.com]

I think in a way this is probably yet another remnant from the Great Leap and Culture Revolution. That period was horrifying. Practically no one could speak their mind, for fear of punishment, not only to yourself, but to your loved ones, friends, collegues. I guess years of repression has left it's mark - it's like they've learnt to be silent. And that psychological mark they're left with, affects the culture, the education, so even generations later, many Chinese are still like that.

But I don't know. It could also be something innate? I'm Chinese, raised in Australia since like 3, but still, I sometimes find myself not speaking. Sure, it could be due to my parents, though as far as that goes, they're quite open. But I guess it's another demostration of just how deeply the Mao years have affected the CHinese psyche.

Guh! I'm sorry. I'm being terribly rude. I'm Lia and I've been a long time lurker on your LJ. Today I felt the urge o delurk. Anyway, thanks for the thought provoking post.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Hi! I love it when the lurkers appear.

That might be part of it. I've heard about the confession groups (in horrific detail, people being turned against family and friend), though I don't know. If you didn't go through it personally as an adult I'm not sure it would effect you like that. Maybe it could be picked up, as a lingering trace from your parents.

As for it being innate... what I'm learning is that certain societies have different assumptions about what's important. So going along with the group is more important among Hispanic, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Italian, Greek... most of the cultures in the world, actually. These place a greater emphasis on the group, on the family. I've been told only the Western countries, Western Europe and the US (and Australia) are individualistic (though I'd like to make a case for some nomadic groups like the yak-herders of the Tibetan plateau of Amdo-Golok and Kham).

I don't want to mix this up with how women are subtly taught to act. Some of this might be cultural expectations of women. Nor do I want to mix it up with personality. Some people are just naturally shy. Although my Chinese student certainly isn't the least bit shy. :)

Icarus

[tonksnymphadora.livejournal.com]

But the people at the child care agency might have to be at home at a certain time to cook dinner or maybe they have to be taking care of someone at a certain time, which in then occurs the domino effect until things spiral out of control.

I do my best to be on time and show courtesy to others. I am sad to say the many times that same courtesy is not shown to me.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Yes, what it seems and what it is are two different things. The definition of courtesy is different from culture, as are the expectations.

Your response is exactly what we would expect of someone who's American or Western. We put the priority on our personal time obligations and it's expected that people respect that. That is not wrong. It's appropriate for our culture. In fact, it's arrogant in our culture to behave as if "Well, my time obligations are more important than yours. So you have to wait for me."

It's just confusing for someone from a culture where the main emphasis is not on working out each individual's needs, but acting in accord with the needs of the group. An Indian man explained to me that it's understood in India that no one's time is their own, that they have many people and conditions that they're subject to. It's a given that a schedule cannot be completely kept, it always has to remain loose and open. You don't even explain when you're late, there's no need for it.

It works both ways. In a childcare center in India, the woman running it can say, "I'm sorry, we're not having childcare today because my mother is sick." No one is upset by that and everyone just works around it. It's a different perception altogether.

Icarus

[tonksnymphadora.livejournal.com]

I see. Yes, I would think that is rather arrogant if someone showed up to a business lunch or dinner late for those reason. Traffic, or sick child or another uncontrollable reason is fine by me.

Thanks for explaining to the blonde girl :)

[mooders.livejournal.com]

clashing cultures can be harsh.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I hope my student doesn't mind being a bug in the test tube. I'm using this as an opportunity to observe and study culture clash.

Icarus

[byandby.livejournal.com]

It's tough, isn't it? The misunderstanding between two (or more) cultures. The clash. I think that this is where many of the world's problems stem from - one culture believing that another is wrong. It's happened for thousands of years and, unfortunately, will continue to happen.

*resumes brooding and thinking about anthropology*

[honeycakehorse.livejournal.com]

Your post reminded me of the time I spent in New Zealand. I had a Japanese host sister there and usually I would end up talking to her about the important things, because my hosr mum was a bit ... impatient and laso spoke as if she was competing for the world record. *g* My host sister's English was perhaps at an intermediate level and so we sometimes had some problems with understanding each other, but she never came out and said that she didn't understand something. I had to ask and then the closest to 'no' she came was 'not really'. I figured then that it also was a culture thing and have found out since that it actually is.

I tried to accomodate her accordingly, but it can be really exhausting at time. :)

[ragnhildholm.livejournal.com]

Differences in culture gives rise to whole hosts of awkward and difficult situations. The most important thing is to try to understand others' culture - because, of course, what may seem rude in one culture, is courteous in another (not that I need to tell you, since you obviously realise it anyway!).

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Glimpses like this into other cultures are so interesting! Thanks for posting this!

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'm going to be posting about this twice a week for the next several weeks, sort of an ongoing series of observations.

Icarus