Ritual and Magic in Harry Potter

[icarus]

Ritual and Magic in Harry Potter

This is inspired by regan_v's recent essay on Ritual and Harry Potter Magic.

Ritual is canon for advanced Dark Magic. We witnessed this in Peter's ritual to bring back the Dark Lord in the Goblet of Fire (which, whoops, I almost spelled Goblin of Fire). It stands to reason that elaborate ritual is also the method for such things as advanced "light" magic, sex magic, sophisticated potions, and the production of such things as, oh say, the Philosopher's Stone.

Why?

Well, this could be because I just like the idea of Snape participating in the combination of exactitude and emotional abandon of ritual. What Peter Pettigrew created after all was more than a concoction of esoteric, er, ingredients; there was a profound emotional meaning to what was sacrificed in that potion. Voldemort was reborn from the father's bones, and the confluence of an enemy's and a servant's focus that continued his existence. (An enemy only exists so long as he's your enemy, n'est pas? If he becomes your friend, the enemy is gone.) The power of hatred and loyalty (if not love) combined with a sacrifice from each had deep emotional significance. Ritual is like that.

But with the good guys we don't see this ritual. Oh yeah, sure, we know Lily did some sort of old, blood magic connected with love that protected Harry, but surely that wasn't a ritual. Or was it?

It's an assumption on our part that Lily simply made a dying wish as Voldemort killed her, flinging her body over Harry's. We project our own Muggle-like selves into the scene and forget that powerful magic in Harry Potter requires sophistication and skill. They are not Muggles, and would not respond as Muggles. We forget Lily was a well-trained witch, and James an Auror.

How much more likely is it that, recognizing they were doomed, Harry's father bought Lily time as she hastily scrawled Runes in her own blood around Harry's crib, building a magical protection that could only succeed with the sacrifice – through love – of her own life. A spell made more powerful through the closeness of the blood tie. Can't you see those Runes flare white, absorbing into Harry as Voldemort struck?

This is an image more powerful than a simple dying wish.

Why is that?

One reason is that a ritual like this assumes a conscious control. That magic is something that can be, with knowledge and skill, mastered.

Hogwarts is founded on this idea. Young wizards can't control their magic without years of increasingly advanced training. Yes, the world of Harry Potter is filled with magical devices (likely created by masters of some art) that work as easily as a pinch of Floo powder. But there are also more specialized skills such as Healing and, one must imagine, particularly sophisticated and subtle magic must be required to create something like the Philosopher's Stone, or else it would be on sale for ten sickles in Diagon Alley.

But why ritual? Why not… something else? Let's look at the options for "something else."

1 – Some wizards simply have more natural power and so are automatically capable.
This is the premise of many fantasy novels with a "Chosen One," but it's not JKR's world. Although inborn magical ability counts for a lot (Dumbledore is often mentioned as a "powerful wizard") it's made clear that Harry's untrained raw talent is not able to take on Voldemort at full power. The only reason he was victorious in his early years at Hogwarts was that Voldemort was severely limited by the lack of a body. Once he had one, Harry is defeated handily even though he's "marked as his [Voldemort's] equal."

2 – Places and times have inherent natural powers.
Call it the New Age or Native American (or African?) Harry Potter. This however would equalize all wizards and by necessity create a culture that wouldn't be Hogwarts with its egalitarian educational opportunities; to keep such power-places out of the wrong hands would require suppression and control of this knowledge. Such places would be carefully hidden and possibly guarded.

3 – A supernatural being or mystical force controls magic.
Call this the Jedi Harry Potter. However, it imparts a religious aspect because magic in this case has its own will. A supernatural being or force requires an environment of sacredness and veneration, a worship of magic as it were. This doesn't fit with Harry Potter. Love, and Blood, is highly regarded, but not objectified in this way.

4 – Magical ability is obtained through martial discipline and endurance.
This is kung-fu Harry Potter. The toughest, not the most talented or the most intelligent, would become the most powerful. It would preclude witches like Hermione from becoming powerful, and exclude the elderly, like Dumbledore. The magical world would be soldier-like, one of samurais: might equals right.

5 – Magic is purely technological, "flip-a-switch" easy and universal.
Call this the James Bond magical world. So long as you have the cash to acquire the technology, either as a government or as a wealthy pure-blood, you have all the magical power you could want. This kind of world begs for corruption and abuse of power, which we can see clearly in HP. But if magical technology were everything, Lucius Malfoy would be the Dark Lord, not a half-blood orphan like Tom Riddle.

If Tom wanted power in this sort of world, he'd seek money first and foremost. Instead, he has gone after esoteric knowledge from the likes of Slughorn, from old texts. Likewise, so has Dumbledore pursued the will o' the wisp of knowledge. Esoteric knowledge is so powerful in HP, Nicholas Flamel lived for 400+ years; it is so highly regarded, Dumbledore could have easily become Minister.

In Harry Potter we find the ascendancy of the esoteric.

But wait, you say. Before we go tottering down the dangerous path of "ritual" nonsense, shouldn't we consider the possibility that Harry Potter magic might be a combination of all of these? Technology, mystical forces, discipline and endurance, the confluence of magical places and times… and pure raw magical talent?

But my dear, I say. Just what do you think ritual is? The technology of the ritual implements, and the order of ingredients or incantations utilized in a controlled fashion. The discipline and endurance of such things as Lily's or Peter's sacrifice. The mystical force of magical energies, whether triggered or intensified through love or loyalty or anger… or Harry's confidence that he could cast a powerful Patronus because he already had. The confluence of magically significant places, such as the tomb of Tom Riddle's father, or attacking on Hallowe'en.

Ritual is powerful not only because it implies that the magic can be consciously controlled, but also that one abandons that control. Abandon oneself to the magic. Voldemort had to trust enough to be dropped into a pot where he could likely drown, for example. Trust Peter Pettigrew of all people, good heavens.

Ritual utilizes all the capacities of the human (Muggle or Wizard) in a way that steps past the limitations of intellect. There is a reason why not literate cultures rely so heavily on ritual to teach. It aligns the emotions, the senses, the physical body, the engaged mind, and connect with something deep, visceral, and even -- dare I say it? -- profound.




ETA: Okay. How many of you kept stopped at sex magic ("...sex magic? Really?")?

Comments

[unreasonably.livejournal.com]

*zombie-eyed* *applauds numbly*

You raised an interesting poing with Lily in the first part. If she had just flung herself in front of Harry to shield him from the Killing Curse, magic would seem alive and organic, with a mind of its own. If she had quickly laid out runes and special magical objects to make a protection spell, magic would be a highly complex, flexible, and powerful tool. They both sound very interesting, like magic could be both in separate fantasy or fictional universes? Yes? Hmmm.

(psst, is Al in another journal)

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Hi Al. :)

They both sound very interesting, like magic could be both in separate fantasy or fictional universes? Yes? Hmmm.

This seems to point to the different conceptions of magic in various fantasy books. For example, Magic's Pawn by Mercedes Lackey draws on the "chosen one" (persons born with magical ability) and the "new age/native american" (special places have magical power). Sure enough, those places are largely guarded and protected.

Japanese anime dwells more on warrior-magic, something that is passed down from a master to trainee, where only the most hard-working who can past muster in the trials survives (and excels). Sure enough, these kids are tough as nails and almost universally male.

Did I miss one, do you think?

Hmm. Magic as hereditary. That was covered in Patricia McKillip's "Riddlemaster" series.

Icarus

[unreasonably.livejournal.com]

Did I miss one, do you think?

I honestly don't know. I'm not well-read at all.

You seem to have touched most of the major 'magic as insert me' types though.

[the-gentleman.livejournal.com]

So now I have to write more rune magic with Lily.

Damn it! :D

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, yes please do. :D You must.

Icarus

[caseylane.livejournal.com]

See, I really like the idea of Lily doing something special to protect Harry. Otherwise we can say that all of the families that died by the Death Eaters had mothers that didn't love their children as much as Lily did. I think it was her foreknowledge, magical skills and love that protected her son.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Otherwise we can say that all of the families that died by the Death Eaters had mothers that didn't love their children as much as Lily did.

I hadn't even considered that, but you're right. It has to be Lily's magical skills. Hmm. And she's great with potions, right?

Scratch the runes, it had to be something with a potion. Although potions in fanfic have been over-done, largely because JKR describes them in greater detail than the other classes.

Icarus

[caseylane.livejournal.com]

I believe she was great with charms also.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Right you are. Good, because I just can't come up with a potion that would do this. Potions have to be taken beforehand and that means that if Voldemort had changed his mind, Lily would have died for nothing.

Icarus

[sharp-tongue.livejournal.com]

Now what you need to do is write one of those "Five Things That Harry Potter Never" stories, one for each of the five types of Harry Potter you listed above.

Personally, I can't wait for James Bond!Potter. "Potter. Harry Potter."

:>

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Well I did write Ron as "Q." Though Sirius was the James Bond character.

"Black. Sirius Black."

Oh that is just so silly.

Now what you need to do is write one of those "Five Things That Harry Potter Never" stories, one for each of the five types of Harry Potter you listed above.

Actually, I need to write original fic based on them. I'm feeling a yen to build my own characters.

Icarus

[sharp-tongue.livejournal.com]

Then you should! You're more than talented enough to craft your own original characters in an original setting. And more importantly, you're disciplined enough.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Maybe create the characters for a book I'll write in the 2006 whatchamacallit, Nanowrimo.

Icarus

[t0ra-chan.livejournal.com]

We forget Lily was a well-trained witch, and James an Auror.

I'm sorry, but since when is James an Auror in canon? I'm pretty sure we were never told what kind of job Harry'S parents had, if they had any at all.

Anyway, I like the idea that Lily had to do something beforehand to make the blood protection work. Otherwise it makes no sense that other people aren't protected the same way. Didn't Barty'Ss mother die for him too, albeit not so directly?
But I fear that it isn't the case and it's just because Lily has the specialness that JKR'S red-headed females posses.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

since when is James an Auror in canon?

You're right. I beta'd a long fanfic that had James as an auror and it seems to have worked its way into my subconscious.

Didn't Barty's mother die for him too, albeit not so directly?

Oh god, that's a good point. Think how many other people have died without that special protection.

But I fear that it isn't the case and it's just because Lily has the specialness that JKR'S red-headed females posses.

Yes, I think you're probably right when it comes to canon. Luckily we have a nice large blank in this space, and in the fandom interpretation we can explore and be more logical.

Icarus

[dien.livejournal.com]

*droool*

This essay makes me happy. Much love to you. Wish I had time for longer more intelligent-sounding response.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I keep wondering if I'm forgetting a conception of magic somewhere. I do seem to be missing the Obi-wan Kenobi "wandering master" idea...

Icarus

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

Huh. Cool. Loved the 'Native American Harry', 'Jedi Harry' labels, they were interesting mantles to try one, but I like your conclusion. I also really really like the obscurity of writing runes in blood in a circle and then standing on the circle to die. That is obscure enough, complicated enough and deliberate enough to feel like something only a mother (or parent) would do.

It's a cool image as well, the red flaring into white light protectively.

I wonder if you'd considered the Christian myth idea? That a boy child was born as a prophesy stated in a bizarre mix of fate and design (in the popular form of a father figure with a long white beard?) but that ultimately, independent thought and community are more highly valued than blind obedience and awe?

Though I have to admit that I paused at the sex magic part and pondered rituals. *ponder ponder*

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

*g* Thank you.

Though I have to admit that I paused at the sex magic part and pondered rituals. *ponder ponder*

Hijja's Harry/Lucius sex magic is the first thing that comes to mind.

I wonder if you'd considered the Christian myth idea?

Is that similar to the "chosen one"? Where someone is innately powerful, in this case through prophesy? I'm trying to see if this is a different category or an offshoot of the first one.

Icarus

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

No, come to think of it, that would qualify as a 'chosen one' idea. I have never understood how a prophesy is meant to make one great, unless it's just to get everyone else on board with believing in you. On the other hand, there's always the 'chosen by whom?' question: the universe? the force? arbitrary luck?

Here's something to ponder, though: I had an English teacher who always objected to how Star Wars ended because the dark side was irradicated, and philosophy suggests that things exist only in opposition to each other: without dark, there is no light. If you have a story in which the good guys win, then, is that too naive?

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, I can see the problem with the contradiction -- if they depend on each other, then if the dark side is destroyed then the light should be as well.

But I always thought that the dark side had been temporarily beaten, though I'm not deep into the canon of the series. Which then would answer your question: it's not naive to have one side win over another.

Besides, I like happy endings.

Icarus

[cordelia_v]

No, I didn't stop at "sex magic."

It aligns the emotions, the senses, the physical body, the engaged mind, and connect with something deep, visceral, and even -- dare I say it? -- profound.

Yes. Exactly.

Now I know why I wrote my essay. It was to get you rev'ed up, so you'd write this one!

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Hoo-boy. I notice you have the same commenter in your LJ as I do, who insists religion and ritual cannot be separated (ha).

It's untrue, and I'm annoyed because it completely reframes and warps what I said, when I specifically dismissed religious basis for HP magic in point three in my essay. I didn't even use Buddhist ritual for Primer, I used Bonpo shamanism and childhood rituals.

Sorry if I was a little long-winded in my reply in your LJ: irritated with them, not you. If she wants to argue with me she can take the time and consideration to do so here.

Icarus

[sarcastic-irony.livejournal.com]

Okay. How many of you kept stopped at sex magic ("...sex magic? Really?")?

[Raises hand]
Me.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Ha. I do have to write a sex-magic story sometime. I'm so impressed with kennahijja's Lucius/Harry that I haven't felt the need yet.

Icarus

[thelastgoodname.livejournal.com]

This is very interesting, and I agree that the function of magic is less visible than I would have liked. I wrote up some of my immediate thoughts, here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/thelastgoodname/66062.html), and I think they can be reduced to: well, it's a lot more complicated than that. From my background, I cannot understand ritual without a religious element; that religious element is thus far absent in Rowling. Everyday rituals are a very different matter than the high rituals of worship, which (it reads to me as if) you are noting.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Swamped right now, but in brief: I don't mean religious ritual. That would be (3) Magic as a force surrounded by worship.

Icarus

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I cannot understand ritual without a religious element

Okay, I have a responsibility that can be put off. You cannot understand ritual without a religious element. Why?

There's a misunderstanding by regan_v. I am Buddhist, yes, but I did not draw on Buddhist ritual for Primer to the Dark Arts (for one thing, those rituals are secret). Religion doesn't have a place in the historical context of JKR's books because of the opposition between the church and witchcraft. Which I mentioned in this essay under point 3. It would create an entirely different magical culture.

Of course ritual exists outside of religion. When I was twelve my best friend and I pricked our fingers and swore to be "blood brothers." :)

Icarus

[thelastgoodname.livejournal.com]

I don't think we're using the same vocabulary here: rituals are predicated on a belief of a larger understanding of the world that exists outside of individuals, a belief that allows individuals to understand the world and their relationships within it; this belief places power in rituals that could not have existed without the ritual or the beliefs. Perhaps my facile use of the word "religious" rather than a "paradigmatic" or "worldview" element was erroneous or misleading.

Or perhaps I am completely misunderstanding your post.

Thank you for the clarification regarding the ritual portion of Primer to the Dark Arts; I have edited my post.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Look, you've allowed a commenter to be snide with me while slapping me down for responding in kind. To me, that indicates bias, which I already caught a whiff of in your essay. You originally closed with reference to my religion and regan_v. Now you just have her religion. Hmm.

You've worked very hard to make sure that both regan_v and I noticed your essay, posting identical links (and messages) in both of our journals. Which is strange.

I don't know what your issue is, (personal problem with religion perhaps?) but take it somewhere else. Bash me in your journal if you like. But there are undertones here that suggest you're not really fighting me.

Icarus

[lurksnomore]

First, let me apologize for my rudeness. It wasn't until I had read the other two essays and thought about it a while that I was able to sort out what I was thinking. I posted in the lj where aspects came together for me, and neglected to come back here. *wishes there was a way to reply in two or more places at once* You are right, I should have have tried to have that conversation here, as well.

While I like all of your explanation for why not Light ritual magic, I actually don't agree with the statement "It stands to reason that elaborate ritual is also the method for such things as advanced "light" magic, sex magic, sophisticated potions, and the production of such things as, oh say, the Philosopher's Stone."

The reason I don't agree is that JKR has shown us one (I think there was just the one--my memory may be wrong) event that I am understanding to be ritual magic: the rebirth of Vodemort in the graveyard. And this ritual is Dark. (On a side note--I find it interesting that only ritual we see is a blood/bone/flesh ritual and explicitly not a sex ritual. So the exceptionally scanty evidence is that these types of blood/bone/flesh rituals are Dark. This could, potentially, leave sex as a Light ritual option.) That's not to say writers can't/shouldn't extend JKR's world in the direction; heck, JKR could extend her world in that direction in the last book.

She has shown us complicated and difficult spells and potions. I may be remembering wrong, but I though we were told that making a portkey is difficult--although whether it is difficult in the sense of requiring lots of power or a complicated spell with extra-special wand wiggles I don't think we know. We are told the Luck potion is extraordinarily difficult. But, JKR tells us that there are steps to produce it. Could it be that some of the steps are rituals? I suppose it could be so. It depends on the definition of ritual.

*Disclaimer! I think that defining 'ritual' is actually very hard. Walking three time widdershins could be a ritual. Or it could be pacing. The repetitive movements baseball batters make could be superstitious rituals. Or they could be nervous ticks. (Although I lean towards rituals here, because some baseball players themselves admit that they are superstitious.) I know that anthropologists have their ways of thinking about this and categorizing this, and I am equally sure that religious and non-religious folk have their theirs. For me, it's sort of like porn. We all know it when we (as individuals) see it. Community definitions are another thing, entirely. The point of this disclaimer is that I hope I don't make offensive assumption, and I'll try not to, but please tell me if I do.*

For me, in JKR's wizarding world, I am actually having a hell of a time pinning down a definition. I can't just say it is a combination of incantations and ingredients, because the luck potion is that. Is it the intent? To subvert the natural order of birth/life/death? Is it the method of harvesting the components? A combination? (Tons of really good fics have explored these options--and many have explored just what the heck Dark magic is, anyway.) Is there, as you say, an emotional component? Is the only ritual we see partly a way of harvesting the negative emotions of those who contribute to the ritual? The father probably would have been unwilling, but he is dead, so maybe it is Voldemort's emotions being harnessed? Harry's hatred as well has his mother's love from his blood. From Peter maybe his focus on survival? Not all the emotions are negative, but certainly taking appropriating them for one's own use would be. Is Dark ritual fundamentally about strengthening the self at the expense of others? This would leave open the option of performing a Light ritual that would be an expense of self for the protection of others. It would also leave open the option of expending one's own blood/bone/flesh to save another.

Because, the really basic thing I agree with you on? Lilly must have done something that all those other mothers didn't know how to do to save Harry. 'Cause speaking as a mom? There really isn't much I wouldn't do to save my children.

(Rest in reply post below, sorry this is long.)

[lurksnomore]

So, I come back to this really pesky word/concept 'ritual'. Is ritual really just another word for magic--albeit one I can't remember JKR using? (Did she use it? Am I totally loosing my memory?) What is it that makes 'ritual' different than 'spell' or 'enchantment'? Is there something else at play in JKRs head that the only thing that looks like a ritual to me she has shown us is Dark? In which case, I am (as I was in thelastgoodname's lj) in the realm of cultural studies and anthropology and meta on the world in which JKR lives. Which actually may have no place in a discussion on the books (except that I do think it is relevant, in a meta kind of way. The culture she live in would have a profound impact on how she sees and uses the word 'ritual'.).

Okay this is already too long, and while I have more to say, I have imposed on you for a while, and I know that you probably don't have time to read more (if you even had the time to read this). You mentioned that this weekend might be better, so I'll check back and see.

Let me say again, I am sorry I gave offense, and if you would rather I didn't post here again, again, please let me know.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

To tell you the truth, I've only skimmed the response to my essay, thinking "no, no, no, that isn't what I meant at all...." Time's been short, but I'm staying late at the college right now and on a high-speed internet connection!

My perspective on ritual is that of a fanfiction writer: what tools can we use to visualize and enrich our stories in a way that will ring true with canon? From my perspective Anthropology is a rich resource to mine, as is Mythology, urban legend, folk tales....

I don't think JKR has ever used the word ritual, and I doubt she ever will. Though I don't think it is the same as magic. Ritual in the context of the examples I give is really more elaborate and so doesn't apply to just throwing some Floo powder in the fire -- even though the fact that I brush my teeth every day is a ritual of sorts.

I suppose I could refine and produce a definition and call it, oh, "esoteric ritual." But I avoided the definition for a reason: because it would distract from my purpose, which isn't examining the underpinings of Harry Potter and the worldview it presents, but rather to consider plausible implications of magic in canon for the sake of fanfiction writers.

Let me say again, I am sorry I gave offense, and if you would rather I didn't post here again, again, please let me know.

I don't know why you're apologizing, though I've been on the run for the last couple days and don't recall if we had an intense conversation or not. I hope not, but if we did, I apologize if I was curt.

Icarus

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Following up -- I checked last night before signing off, and I saw that you had commented thelastgoodname's journal. That's not a problem, you're commenting where the question was raised, which is not you're doing. LGN has a very rigid definition of ritual that's textbook anthropology, and I'd love to discuss it, but I smell something off in the way she's approached it.

So I'll discuss it here. *g* Most anthropologists who've done a detailed ethnography would cringe at saying anything in human nature is neat and clear-cut. They'd say, yeah, that's the definition, but it's more like a guideline to give someone unfamiliar with it a basis to understand what's happening than an actual rule.

When one actually goes to a foreign culture and do the ethnography the first thing an anthropologist learns is that their preconceptions are going to be challenged. I did an ethnography in an environment that I thought I knew well, and discovered that a large part of its function was really as a pick-up joint. :D

Religion is being studied more intensively because the original definitions (which LGN included, along with more recent attempts to expand it) suggested that once scientific knowledge became more readily available, religion would die out. It would no longer be needed to explain the rest of the world.

In the 1960's in fact, anthropologists went to great lengths to record out of the way pentacostal (did I spell that right?) religions because they believed it was the last chance to do so.

I think this evidence demonstrates the definition of the role of religion was inaccurate. The fact that 9/11 caught anthropologists by surprise tells me we still don't understand it.

But that's religion.

Ritual is something I distinguish from religious belief. One of the problems I see with LGN's definition is that it doesn't seem to distinguish between ritual and belief. But belief can exist without ritual. And ritual can exist without belief. So they are separate.

Since ritual and religion are separate, we can draw on rituals from outside sources to augment our HP fanfic.

Now I'm going to do something I really didn't want to attempt. I'm going to propose a definition of ritual for the purposes of this essay. *facepalm* *cringe*

Ritual I think (the ones we tend to recognize as rituals) is a methodology using signification and symbols in an esoteric ceremonial form. How's that for a tight definition?

Methodology implies that it's not a belief in and of itself, but rather a means to an end. The separates it from religion and allows us to use it in the context of magic.

Signification and symbols implies that it uses emblems that have or suggest special meaning for the participants.

Esoteric means that an uninformed outsider would not be able to understand or replicate it, that it would take some inside knowledge. Harry would be unable to replicate the Philosopher's Stone even if he saw it being made.

And ceremonial implies that it's more or less elaborate. That part of the definition is simply to distinguish it from ordinary rituals such as brushing your teeth every day or saying "good morning" to everyone you meet as you would in Japan.

It really was too tempting to discuss and define ritual.

Icarus

[lurksnomore]

I did an ethnography in an environment that I thought I knew well, and discovered that a large part of its function was really as a pick-up joint. :D

I did an ethnography about, essentially, how to get a pint in a pub in one part of England if you are a woman, with added bits about the changing pub and drinking culture in that part of England. I never learned so much about how I see and what I looked for and at as I did tramping about through downtowns and across the countryside trying to understand what made some pubs safe, others not safe and the proper etiquette for drinking therein. Not to mention how many of such places one can go to on a weeknight, and how much I like some English beers and ales. Ahem.

But that's religion. Ritual is something I distinguish from religious belief.

To tell you the truth, I tend to distinguish between religion, ritual, and belief. All three overlap each other in interesting, multi-dimensional ways, but are different. But I am not going there. I don't think either of us have the time, but especially you with your schedule don't have the time to go down that path.

How's that for a tight definition?

Pretty damn tight, and specific to the situation. Brava. I think that this works for the HPverse, and, more specifically, marries well with the only thing that looked like a ritual in the six books so far: the rebirth.

It would give you the space within JRKs world to do what you want in your version of her world, without changing her world beyond the point that the only ritual she has shown us is Dark, and you are positing that there must be Light rituals as well. And given that the rebirth is bone/blood/flesh, I vote that the Light get teh sex. Because, ahem, sex. ;-)

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Disclaimer! I think that defining 'ritual' is actually very hard. For me, it's sort of like porn. We all know it when we (as individuals) see it.

Agreed. I considered defining ritual, but I decided I'd end up in arguments about what is and what isn't ritual, and we'd forget the point that I'm just coming up with a framework for writing magic in fanfiction. So I used an example to give us a starting point.

I actually don't agree with the statement "It stands to reason that elaborate ritual is also the method for such things as advanced "light" magic, sex magic, sophisticated potions, and the production of such things as, oh say, the Philosopher's Stone." and For me, in JKR's wizarding world, I am actually having a hell of a time pinning down a definition.

There is no deductive way to pin down magic in JKR -- "this is what it is" -- and I think that's a good thing. It's richer and more diverse. I think an overall founding theory would make HP sterile. But we can make an inductive case that it's probable, given there's one type of ritual for Dark Magic, that there will be its opposite for "Light" Magic. I can't prove it unless JKR writes it, but it's likely. Fanfiction (unless it's wildly AU) deals with what's likely, or at least possible, based on what we know of canon.

Is there, as you say, an emotional component?

Based on Cruciatus Curse, we know (from Bellatrix) there is an emotional component.

To subvert the natural order of birth/life/death?

We know two spells/magical containers that do this: Voldemort's Horcruxes, and the Philosopher's Stone. I assume since Dumbledore and Nicholas Flamel were lauded for their work on the Philosopher's Stone that the latter must be "Light" (or respectable ;) magic. So there's a precedent of a parallel of "light" and dark magic at least doing the same thing. That opens the door to other parallels.

Is it the intent?

Some spells seem to hinge on the intent, or at least the focus of the mind. Accio comes to mind. Cruciatus.

Is it the method of harvesting the components?

*scans mind* The only time I've seen the method used being important is the graveyard ritual. When I list the advanced highly technical magic Harry has seen in process, I come up with the graveyard scene and that's it. Everywhere else he's dealing with the product of some advanced magic.

However, there is the battle in OotP between Dumbledore and Voldemort, and there wasn't any ritual associated with those spells -- yet you know they had to be pretty advanced.

I doubt anyone wants to do elaborate ritual in a battle situation. :D It would be tragic, don't you think? "I call upon the--" SPLAT.

So advanced magic doesn't neccessarily require ritual. However, if certain spells (like the Philosopher's Stone) were easy, everyone would have one. So there has to be a reason it isn't. If just power were required, then Voldemort would have just made a Philosopher's Stone -- forget Horcrux's. He's certainly powerful enough.

So logically, there must be an esoteric aspect to certain types of advanced magic. Technology tends to get out and spread. The military does their level best to hide their latest developments, but word always gets out. It must be difficult to accomplish these spells, and so much of magic is internal (requires a powerful wizard, requires a particular mindset) that I'm thinking a complex ritual (with serious consequences if you fail?) is a good bet.

On to the rest of your message...

[lurksnomore]

There is no deductive way to pin down magic in JKR...But we can make an inductive case that it's probable, given there's one type of ritual for Dark Magic, that there will be its opposite for "Light" Magic. I can't prove it unless JKR writes it, but it's likely.

I think that where I am having trouble is the whole Dark magic thing. I can see that there is room for there to be Light rituals. But I think I am getting hung up on the question 'why is the only ritual she has shown us Dark?' It may be that that is entirely the wrong question.

I keep rereading in my mind (Does that ever happen to you? You keep seeing pages of texts in your head? And reading through them. Its helpful sometimes, the rest of the time its a major pain in the ass. Anyway.) Dumbledore telling Harry about how Volemort traveled all over, consorting with dark creatures and undergoing so many magical transformation that when he came back he (Dumbledore) barely recognized the bright, attractive you man who had been Head Boy here. And I somehow mix in my mind the 'magical transformations' and 'ritual'. As I think about it, it is probably because rituals, at their best and most deeply felt level, are transformative experiences for those that undergo them and I can only equate the 'magical transformations' of Voldemort with rituals--which, when I think about it, was what the rebirth in the graveyard was. Okay, now that I have rambled about it in your lj, I think that is probably the source of my difficulty with Light rituals on a theoretical level. I do love to read them in fanfic, but I just sort of thought of them as mildly AU. When, in fact, I may be the thing that is AU.

We know two spells/magical containers that do this: Voldemort's Horcruxes, and the Philosopher's Stone. I assume since Dumbledore and Nicholas Flamel were lauded for their work on the Philosopher's Stone that the latter must be "Light" (or respectable ;) magic. So there's a precedent of a parallel of "light" and dark magic at least doing the same thing. That opens the door to other parallels.

The Philosopher's Stone? Is a giant pain in the ass, theoretically speaking. I'm running with the theory that it doesn't subvert the birth/life/death order so much as stretch the middle section. Although, given the money aspect, I'd tend to class this toy as Gray. A really shadowy gray that is verging on dark. (I'm not so much in favor of pairs of extremes. I tend towards the spectrum way of thinking. Thus my problem pinning down definitions of things like 'ritual'. I tend to ask 'what is the context or situation?)

I said further up somewhere: Is Dark ritual fundamentally about strengthening the self at the expense of others? This would leave open the option of performing a Light ritual that would be an expense of self for the protection of others. It would also leave open the option of expending one's own blood/bone/flesh to save another.

And I think this is where I end up. I think it fits with the 'all you need is love' and the 'love is the thing that Harry has that Voldemort doesn't' thing JKR has going on. It also allows for things like the Philosopher's Stone and the Mirror of Erised. In this context, both objects and their process of creation can be seen as value neutral; it is the intent of the user that determines their Light/Darkness. And it specifically allows for Light rituals, even of the bone/blood/flesh kind. All I have to do is get around my own mental blocks about JKR as author and non-user of the word 'ritual' and her cultural background.

I doubt anyone wants to do elaborate ritual in a battle situation. :D It would be tragic, don't you think? "I call upon the--" SPLAT.

It would be pretty damn hilarious. Done well, it would be brilliant satire or farce. Know anyone to give this plot bunny to?

It must be difficult to accomplish these spells, and so much of magic is internal (requires a powerful wizard, requires a particular mindset) that I'm thinking a complex ritual (with serious consequences if you fail?) is a good bet.

Except without the SPLAT thing.