icarusancalion

Until the recent compilations I just didn't get the Cassandra Claire situation. The problem with it is less the size and more the polarization. It's like trying to referee between cats and dogs: nothing doing.

I find it interesting just to hear different ideas and perspectives, but also to see how people react to different things.

I like to see if I can untangle it. When a ball of yarn is hopelessly tangled, usually there's one main knot that, once you loosen that up... the entire thing gently comes unsnarled. If you're careful. Wanks are like that, too. If you can point out and solve the crux of the issue, the whole thing can smooth out.

The trouble is how much dust is kicked up in the process. People get tight and the issue gets tighter.

Icarus

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aizjanika.livejournal.com

I just like to observe from afar. *g* I'm not interested in solving problems, but more just seeing what happens--like watching the natives in their natural habitat. Since I'm also one of the "natives," it's about me, too--perhaps an insight into what motivates people, even why I react the way that I do. I don't know. *g* I just find it fascinating. :-)

I'm not interested in playing referee, either. That's a thankless job. *g* I don't have those skills anyway.

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Feel free to do a mission report on Seven Walls if you want to. I'm never going to write about what was going on in Atlantis right after they all disappeared. It's an open field up until Teyla gets back. Or write some of the stuff you've been speculating about in the emails.

Also, I like John the rebellious figure skater.

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You read my mind. Yes, I was thinking of doing a mission report on City Of Seven Walls.

You know what I'm learning from your writing? How to add description back in without allowing it to take over. I started as a Tolkien copycat, with long meandering description that... oh, who needs a story when there's the beauty of the countryside, right? I ruined the pacing.

In 2002 I ripped my writing style apart, telling myself, "Self. Just write the damned story." If it wasn't relevant, it went. *snip*

But I've gone too far to the opposite extreme, there's not enough setting.

Also, I'm watching how you're willing to change a WIP, make sweeping adjustments, even after it's posted. I loved the extra detail on the Eiff (we did need that, because I pictured a monkey-like thing). The bits about Rodney's attraction, his locking it up, your willingness even to change a major plot-point with Teyla as your story changes -- I've never seen anyone do that. You put the story first. I really appreciate that.

Also, I like John the rebellious figure skater.

*grins at you* Cool.

Icarus

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I like using description of place or details to signal mood and feeling from the pov character. The rule I try to follow is to not describe more than someone might actually notice. And that differs from situation to situation and person to person.

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Hmm. *nods* Good rule of thumb. That's why there's so much description in Seven Walls. The pace of life allows for it, while the strangeness demands it of them.

I see too why my Tolkien descriptions got out of control: third person omniscient. There was no eye (or "I") to limit the description.

Icarus

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your willingness even to change a major plot-point with Teyla as your story changes -- I've never seen anyone do that.

That's why I really don't care to post WiPs. Normally, I like to hide all the nasty construction mess and present a finished product. That changing things up, even going back and rewriting or changing things isn't out of the ordinary. I write out of sequence. It's inevitable that I have to revise hard.

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I understand that. The usual technique is to put on a bright toothy smile and pretend "oh yeah, I meant to forget Rodney would be allergic to lemon dishwashing detergent" <--(actual fic-error). To be willing to change the whole, add paragraphs, editing in public... ballsy. Do you undress in front of windows, too?

I did it with Colony Atlantis and Primer to the Dark Arts. Aside from feeling a little exposed, it was rather nice using an entire fandom as beta readers.

Icarus

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Do you undress in front of windows, too?

No, but I sleep with the front and back door open in summer time.

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Well, I'm working on it. We'll see if anything gells. If something comes of it, would you like to see it first?

Icarus

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I'd love to see it, but don't feel any obligation to show it to me or that you need any kind of approval from me. And if you have some background question about Seven Walls, feel free to ask. I might not know, but I'd figure something out to tell you. *g*

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*laughs* Yeah, I make up my answers on the fly, too. "Uh, you want to know how old Sheppard was he started skating. Yeeeeah... um, that would age seventeen *cough*probably*cough*"

Icarus

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Yeah, wank is a fascinating thing :D And if people are getting hurt -- well, it was their decision in the first place to enter the snakes’ pit that is fandom :D

I hope you won’t be f-locking that article because I’d very much like to read it :D And, by the way, maybe you’ll unlock *that* post -- lots of time passed, people are already forgetting it :D I’d like to read your plagiarism-related thoughts

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I did the next-best thing, and went ahead and friended you. So you can check out that other post at your leisure. Also, I've elaborated to

dingdongdevious below.

Icarus

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Thanks! :)

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enname.livejournal.com

Yes, but I like Out of Bounds dammit so it needs to be not stopped. Inbetween slave fic (how ironic that I just wrote salve fic..) there needs to be figure skating John.

Also perhaps you need to be better, which might just help things along and the world in general.

If your mission report is a report for what I am thinking it is for, then get permission. *nod* Oh yes, and I might even learn to construct a sentence that follows at least one grammatical rule.

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If your mission report is a report for what I am thinking it is for, then get permission.

I have it, and yes, you're right about whose story this is based on. It's not gelling yet, though.

I'm doing a few edits on the skating fic, but the new bit is too short and lacks a sense of closure. Can't post it yet.

Icarus

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dingdongdevious.livejournal.com

When you say Cassandra Claire plagiarism, do you mean she's plagerised or that people think she's plagerised? I've never heard of this before, so I'm curious.

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She did. I've seen the side-by-side comparisons and basically she took chunks out of Pamela Dean's book and edited over the top, fitting them into her storyline.

Usually when people plagiarize they take an entire story wholesale. For example, when someone grabbed my "Skinny Dipping," she posted the whole thing unaltered under her name. Sometimes people edit lightly, changing the name Lucius to Draco, to change the pairing. This is usually done to hide the plagiarism.

I've never seen anyone embed heavily edited sections in another fanfic that has a completely different storyline. There are lots of smaller examples of these, quilting together in a magpie-like collection bits and pieces of other people's work. Some people look at parts of this as an easter egg hunt, find the Buffy quotes, but the overall effect is one of a quilt made of other people's work.

Now, there are detailed lists of citations, and an effort to get permission to use Pamela Dean's work. You can't cite such heavily edited pieces in any meaningful way. Of course you should get permission for anything you use (though I doubt any songfics write to the Eagles's record label to get permission to use their lyrics). But I don't think cites and permission address the issue.

I've avoiding posting about this, but I did an experiment. I took two Ron/Draco stories (one of them my own, one that was written for me) and I edited them together in a third different storyline.

1 - it went really fast.
2 - it was tricky to fit the pieces together because they were such different stories.
3 - I felt like I owned the overall story that I was using to knit them together; that was my work.
4 - it wasn't at all like writing my own fanfiction; it was a completely different type of labor.

Even with permission and citations, it wouldn't be fair to compare the Ron/Draco story I quilted together with the hard work of writing Beg Me For It. Just like it wouldn't be fair to compare the work of original fiction with fanfiction. The end result might look the same, but it's harder to build your own world and create your own OCs. Even there are enormous similiarities in the process. And fanfiction has the extra work of staying in character and within canon. It's different from original fiction.

Setting aside the type of labor, we have different expectations as readers of original fiction and fanfiction.

If we learned that an original story used characters and plots from another story, we'd mock it and be angry. With fanfiction we expect the characters and plots and get annoyed if we don't see them.

Even with permission and citation, this "quilting" or "sampling" as

malsperanza doesn't meet our expectations of fanfiction. With fanfiction we assume that the writers have written their own words. Obviously this doesn't meet our expectations. People are really angry, and have been since 2001.

The closest category we have currently is an MST where we expect this sort of sampling. All I can suggest is that we have a separate category of "Sampled" stories so we're not applying the expectation of fanfiction. And of course get permission and mention sources.

Having written one as an experiment, fanfiction and this sort of sampling is apples and oranges. The real anger is over "we thought this was your writing and it isn't." All the cites in the world won't resolve it.

This is a conversation that should have happened back in 2001, and a new category that's upfront about what the story is, with different expectations, should have been created back then.

Icarus

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dingdongdevious.livejournal.com

What story of Cassie's used parts from Pamela Dean's work?

I agree with you that it's best if people never use citations/permission. I've read some of Cassie Claire's stuff and I noticed that she does quote a lot, which she then cites. They are often one-liners and don't really take away from the fact that the rest of her work (plot/themes/character development) are from her own imagination. As a reader, I think, "o, that clever line really wasn't by her, but the way she set up the story and the important parts are all original, so she's still a great writer."

But, correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying that Cassie took some plot/theme points from Pamela Dean and tweaked it to fit her own and then didn't really tell people that's what she did, which essentially goes beyond the one-liners. If that's the case, I see how that would change a reader's viewpoint of her as a writer, and therefore should be forwarned.

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This was in Draco Sinister. She didn't take theme points, she took entire paragraphs. Then she changed the character names, inserted description. Deleted portions. Added dialogue.

Essentially, she used those parts as a foundation and then built on them.

Yes. It has changed my view of her as a writer quite a bit. This isn't what we do in fanfiction. When I write my stories, I'm appropriating characters and the world-building, but I do all my own writing.

Icarus

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dingdongdevious.livejournal.com

Agreed.

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Oh, I don't believe that bits were a foundation of the story. They filled the gaps -- no more :)

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Not for the story, for those sections. I experimented with something similar. To have the punctuation appear in the same place you have use the original paragraph as a base, and then add and change and edit.

I think in the above post I was clear that the storyline that's threading through it is her own. Otherwise it would be your typical plagiarism and not "Sampling." But this isn't what people expect of fanfiction -- they expect the writer to write all their own text (allusions, poems, etc. are allowed) -- and that's why they're so angry.

Icarus

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Oh, that's not at all the reason why they are so angry :) 99% of them haven't read Draco Trilogy. They are angry because they are jealous of Cassie's popularity and the fact that she lifted something only added to it :) "I wrote on my own and I do not have an army of screaming fangirls!!!" :) All of them want an army of screaming fangirls and now they feel that Cassie stole their popularity :) So, they blame her for the disasters of their fandom life -- they think that she fooled people into loving her. I personally do not feel fooled :)

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You know, I did warn you that I'm not at all uncritical of Cassandra Claire.

As for the Draco Trilogy, I enjoyed the story, but I've always called it "comic book fun" -- not great, but a good time. My opinions tend to be at odds with both sides of the debate.

I find it amusing that in 2003 and 2004 my opinions got me classified as a Cassandra Claire hater -- nothing could be further from truth, I appreciated her review of Primer to the Dark Arts. Now, in 2006, my unchanged opinions have me classified as a Cassandra Claire supporter.

*shrugs*

I think people like the Draco Trilogy to varying degrees and for varying reasons. How can a thousand people have the same motives? It's just not possible.

Likewise, I think people don't like the Draco Trilogy to varying degrees and varying reasons.

If it's wrong for the people who criticize to oversimplify the fans' reasons for liking it, then it's also unfair to oversimplify the critics' motives.

Icarus

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How can a thousand people have the same motives? It's just not possible

Err, maybe tens of thousands? :)

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I'm not a fan and I never have been. I was just telling the truth as I saw it in

titti's journal. Same as I always have.

Icarus

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