Our dirty little secrets.

[icarus]

Been hanging out at David Hewlett's dgeek.com forums the last couple of days.

It's been interesting, I've really enjoyed it. I probably won't hang out there much because my main interest in fandom is fanfiction, but watching the forums take root and grow and people freak out and then calm down has all been fascinating.

Poor David. People were so panicky about "things that might be posted!" he probably has some strange ideas of what's out there. People have mentioned concerns about legalities but I think that's disingenuous.

In reality, we'd be embarrassed if he found, say...

- xanthelj's BDSM John/Rodney slash novels. Face it. If David reads fanfiction, we want him reading rivier's "Exigencies," not our guilty-pleasure BDSM porn.

- All our icons clipped from Century Hotel with captions such as "Heart-shaped ass" (with a heart drawn around his fanny?).

- The fact that 90% of the fanfic in SGA centers on Rodney, and most of that is John/Rodney. And that a huge percentage of that is rated NC-17.

- The Hewlett-head stuck-on-a-porn-star body photomanips.

- Even worse, the Hewlett-head and Flanigan-head stuck-on-porn-star-bodies and then stuck-together photomanips.

I've been thinking. What if David stumbled onto your fanfic? Are there any stories you wouldn't quietly die inside if he read them?

Comments

[moxie-brown.livejournal.com]

"All our icons clipped from Century Hotel with captions such as "Heart-shaped ass" (with a heart drawn around his fanny?). "


How dare you! *flounces off in a huff*

*is secretly pleased somebody noticed icon*

;)

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I love that icon. *hides it behind my back where David can't see*

Icarus

[moxie-brown.livejournal.com]

I'm really fascinated by how this whole, David Hewlett runs his own site thing is playing out. We've got very grumpy fans pissed off/worried about the nutty ones freaking David out and giving us a bad rep, then we got the psychos who'll probably accost him at the next convention with Sheppard/McKay manips, but I'm just sitting back in awe of how laid-back David seems to be taking it. He either has a huge ego and loves all the attention, no matter how weird; or really is the coolest guy on the planet, or has the most mischievous sense of humor in the universe. :)

[flamesword.livejournal.com]

My vote for some of all three. XD

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

*snickers* Really.

Icarus

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Hee. I'd also go with d).

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

He mentions that he's no stranger to forums. I'm sure he knew exactly what to expect (or the varieties of possible things to expect) and had a game plan when he set up the forums. It didn't take him long to separate the unpopular photomanip people from the rest of the group, supporting them in the process.

Of course... pictures of himself. Hee. ;)

Icarus

[enname.livejournal.com]

Really I think I'd die more about the manips and some icons than the stories. Hell, I am all for dying inside on behalf of those who make them.

Well, as long as the stories were well written and not bad!fic. Although at least you can brush those off as 'omg fourteen year old', but I'd still prefer him finding something that was plotted and presentable even if it was NC-17 slash.

RPS - that would do it for me, because I can't cope with it myself in the first place. Guess it is like the manips, anything that is not clearly about characters, but the actor is enough to make me disturbed.

Uh, should stop procrastinating and actually go feed the koala-cat-thing.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Because the manips are more directly about him. *nods*

Really I think I'd die more about the manips and some icons than the stories. Hell, I am all for dying inside on behalf of those who make them.

I'd still prefer him finding something that was plotted and presentable even if it was NC-17 slash.

True. And so unlikely given that he wouldn't be going off a rec-list.

RPS - that would do it for me, because I can't cope with it myself in the first place.

RPS crosses the line with me. It's... we don't know these people the way we do the fictional characters. How can it be even remotely believable?

Uh, should stop procrastinating and actually go feed the koala-cat-thing.

Koala-cat-thing of clinging needy adorableness. *g*

Icarus

[enname.livejournal.com]

Huh. Perhaps someone should pre emptively, accidently post a recs list? Or at least a 'please do not read because omg, bad'. Sure I know it wouldn't work but it has to be better than him finding stuff in the wild per se.

RPS makes itself a line I thin. We don't know them, can't know them and you may as well actually go and write a fictional character instead of being so incredibly, potentially offensive to someone who is real. Post modernism is fine until it actually hurts someone.

*g* The koala-cat-thing of clinging needy adoreablness just walked in so as to sit behind me and mew pitifully. Oh God cat, the world is such a cold cruel place for you, isn't it?

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Perhaps someone should pre emptively, accidently post a recs list?

Given the likely reaction, it should probably be an innocent-looking sockpuppet.

I was convinced not to post fanfic recs because fans have (on two occasions) sued writers for concepts that come to close to their own, believing that they author got the idea from their fanfic. The lawyers tell the copyright holders not to read fanfic just to protect themselves from this eventuality (or else lie about not reading it).

The case made was that if you post recs on David's site, it could (conceivably) give some plausibility to some fan who might... wow, I can't believe I bought this argument two days ago. But anyways, it helps protect David from lawsuits from wackos if he should end up writing and episode of Atlantis.

We don't know them, can't know them and you may as well actually go and write a fictional character instead of being so incredibly, potentially offensive to someone who is real. Post modernism is fine until it actually hurts someone.

It's downright bizarre. Though there are people who say that about slash. Still, slash characters are fictional while the RPS borders on libel.

*g* The koala-cat-thing of clinging needy adoreablness just walked in so as to sit behind me and mew pitifully. Oh God cat, the world is such a cold cruel place for you, isn't it?

She needs you, on tap, 24/7. Anything less is unacceptable. *cuddles koala-cat-thing*

Icarus

[enname.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I am aware of the copyright minefield. Hence the addition of not a good idea, or would never work. Just the thought of it makes my head hurt. Or even the merest thought of intellectual property rights.

Um. There is a difference between saying slash is bizarre because of a disagreement over sexual preference/interpretation of a fictional character, versus writing RPS which involves the names and presumed lives of real people. Bizarre and disturbing that the difference doesn't take for so many people.

On tap and focused solely on him dammit. *is typing from under the koala-cat-thing who is draped over an arm* He suspects I am leaving him behind tomorrow when I go visit the parents. Little does he realise he is coming roadtripping with me.

Real Person Fic

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

Way back when I was in high school, me and a classmate spent one memorable evening making up a convoluted romance story starring two of our teachers as star-crossed lovers. Did we think that there was any realistic chance that the two were / could be romantically involved? Hell no! But they did have strong, quirky personalities that made it fun to play around with them by putting them in "what if" scenarios.

I'm thinking a similar kind of impulse drives people who write real person fics. The subjects of real person fics are celebrities -- almost by definition, they are strong personalities with memorable character traits that can serve as "hooks" for someone's imagination.

It occurs to me, also, that the creative process for real person fic and fanfic share some similarites, insofar as they both involve taking pre-existing characters and situations (in the case of RPF, situations as far as we know/conjecture about these people's lives), and writing stories based on them.

And not that I spend a lot of time searching out RPF, but the ones I've come across all came with disclaimers noting that they were *fictional* accounts, in no way meant to imply anything about the actual people's lives or preferences, etcetra, etcetra. So I'd say that these disclaimers show that the writers of RPF are very much aware of the fictionality of their stories.

Whether or not it's ethical or prudent to publicly post RPF is a point that can be debated. But I'm not quite ready to dismiss it out of hand as totally different from slash or fanfic in general.

Plus, I also have to ask, how much of the "original" fiction out there are some form of real person fic, with names and details changed just enough so as to not make the "source" glaringly obvious?

And no, I haven't actually written any RPF. Well, at least not yet. ;)

Re: Real Person Fic

[enname.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean to come across as suggesting that it is fundamentally different from slash or fanfic, as an elephant is to an apple. On a textual level they are the same, because you are essentially writing about pre existing fictional characters and their situations. Nor that RPS writers think that their stories are anything other than fiction. If they didn't then I would be seriously doubting their sanity.

However, for RPS there is also an existing non textual, living source as well. One that does have independent thought, feelings and emotions and who has not given permission for their name/personality to be used. Whether or not I know these or can ever determine them is not the point. The very fact that I'd want to try just squicks the hell out of me. Look, I have great difficulty even reading historical fiction that star characters who existed and are dead. As a historian I also try to deal in themes and not recreating personalities, even though the arguments about whether or not history itself is a work of fiction to begin with still rage.

Considering doing so for someone who is alive and named as themselves without their permission? Just no.

Yes, I am aware that not everyone agrees with me and I respect that right to differ. But I cannot throw myself happily into that sort of analysis without remembering the basis and being disturbed as all hell. No matter how compelling the projected personalities, or fun the scenarios.

What I was saying to Icarus was that I didn't like the logic behind comparing the reasons given for not liking slash, to not liking RPS. The starting premises do not match and it strikes me as fallacious. If however it was about liking slash in RPS versus without, then perhaps the comparison might work.

I can't do a survey to work out how much fiction is built off real life characters, experiences, friends before being built into other influences. Probably some, but most of it is filtered into a greater theme or story and thus few characters are literally other people. Influenced? Yes. I know that publishers are wary because of legal complications and there are required statements to be signed. Those stories that are based on real or living people acknowledge it and, most importantly, have permission. Also changing names to protect the individuals. If they don't (and have no permission) I will not touch it with a barge pole.

A complex debate for sure, but I am not trying to preach to anyone on it. Just that I cannot, personally cope.

:)

Re: Real Person Fic

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

If there were femmeslash about a character I played on TV I wouldn't want to read it. That would be just too weird. But the character's fictional so it wouldn't really bother me. Writers are inventing things for my character to do every week.

If there were RPF about me personally, I'd be kind of pissed off about it. On the same level that I'd be pissed about tabloids making shit up about me and my life. I'd find it intrusive, insulting, and upsetting.

And I have a basis for this. I actually was a character in a nonfiction book, and the idea of someone taking that and running with it -- I would truly hate it. It wouldn't be fair to me, and yes, I'd probably sue if I found it. I'm not a public figure so I'd more than likely win the case. I'd want blood for it because RPF would be potentially damaging to my career and reputation.

Even if people say it's fictional, well, so are our reputations. They're never 100% true and they're carefully cultivated in some circles. Your reputation is sometimes all you have.

Icarus

Re: Real Person Fic

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

I certainly agree that RPF is problematic for a variety of reasons, foremost among them that the subject of the fic might be offended / hurt by it. However, I hesitate to equate them with tabloids, because tabloids purport to be reporting facts, while RPF make no such claim. Which of course does not preclude the possibility of an RPF being taken as fact, or god forbid, an actor's young niece googling her uncle's name and finding RPS about him (a scenario proposed in my other fandom during a discussion about whether fic writers need to "child proof" their websites).

What I find interesting, however, is that RPF is here and apparently here to stay, despite how problematic it is -- and while part of what drives RPF might be obsessive interest in details of a celebrity's personal life, ala tabloid gossip, it also does seem to share some common roots with fanfic as well.

It's like -- that romance about our teachers that my classmate and I made up -- if we were doing it today, we might do it over internet chat. And if one or both of us had the chat saved to our hard drive, it'd be a simple matter to edit it into a fic. And tada! RPF! And while I haven't really felt any impulse yet to write down any of them, I do have the occasional fantasy about real life people, which -- well, it's not a line I'm prepared to cross now, but will I feel the same about it tomorrow? next year? I honestly don't know. And even if I never cross that line, I think I understand why others do.

Re: Real Person Fic

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

It's interesting discussion.

I'm forcing myself to work on Out Of Bounds this afternoon (before I spend my entire vacation on online debates :), but you make me think about lines of propriety and where we draw them, and the question of journalistic ethics. The ethics of journalism developed out of real harm done by "yellow news," and because the credibility of journalism was taking a hit by being perceived as sleazy.

If the result of fanfiction is to move the line such that published online RPF is acceptable, does that make fanfiction sleazy by association? Is this a natural slippery slope? In the case of journalism, journalistic ethics and rules were established so the journalism went on an upswing (even if some didn't like the new standards of fact-checking and mroe or less not taking sides).

Hmm. Let me think about it.

There's a reason for the rules of getting someone's permission before you write about them, and that's because to not do so (even if it's a tell-all biography) is sleazy, and it is almost always damaging.

The reason for getting permission before using copyrighted material is because you could be impacting someone's living, making money off of their work... Hmm. Fanfiction doesn't do that because there's no money changing hands.

RPF and Fanfiction hit entirely different ethical and legal issues. No one's ever going to be sued for libel by Rodney McKay. *g*

Icarus

[teaphile.livejournal.com]

I really don't think I'd be embarrassed if he read any of my fic. For the most part--even the slash, rare though it is--I think I did justice to his character. I certainly wouldn't want him reading some of the whiny Emo!Rodney stories that are out there, though. Or the porn star manips, either, mainly because I get embarassed for fandom when I see those.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

For my part, I have to admit that most of fics are slash and a good percentage would make me wince.

Well, if he were just reading them, and had seen the warnings on the internet, I'd be fine with his reaing my better work.

Now, if he were across the table from me, reading a print-out, occasionally giving me the raised eyebrow? I think my head would be in my hands.

Icarus

[teaphile.livejournal.com]

Now, if he were across the table from me, reading a print-out,
occasionally giving me the raised eyebrow? I think my head would be in my
hands.

Well, that's a given.

I have original work that I don't want people who know me personally to read. Not because it's bad, but because there are personal things in them that they'll see right through. I have no problem with strangers seeing that, though. I get the feeling it's the same kind of issue; it's less embarrassing to be removed from your reader.

[crazed_delusion]

David's a sci-fi guy through and through, so he knows the crowds, so I doubt there's anything that any of us have that he hasn't at least seen in some form before. Cause while Slash used to be an underground thing, it's becoming much more mainstream in conventions, and the shows play into the slash fans now. It wouldn't surprise me if he'd just find it all amusing...if slightly disturbing, but still amusing.

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

It wouldn't surprise me if he'd just find it all amusing...if slightly disturbing, but still amusing.

Exactly! I doubt there's anything the deranged fannish mind can come up with that he hasn't seen a hundred times over by now. I wouldn't be surprised if he lurks around LJ communities like mckay_sheppard, and laughs his ass off at the heart-encircled fanny icons. (pun so intended!)

And Icarus, you are so on target about what the freak-out was really about. Protect Mr. Hewlett's delicate sensibilities, indeed!

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Ha! Hi, nightspring. It's nooooo coincidence that most of the people who've turned up (at least initially) are fanfiction writers, and most of what they're worried about is... ta-da! Fanfiction. Yeah, those NC-17 sex scenes are hidden carefully behind their backs.

Icarus

[iibnf.livejournal.com]

I think they're old enough and smart enough to take note of any warnings of 'GAY PORN!' and therefore I don't care what they read - they have the same porn choices as the rest of us :D

[filenotch.livejournal.com]

I probably won't meta this in my own journal, so I'll tell it here:

In my (former) field, if you gave a seminar on your work and there were no questions afterward, it would be a Bad Thing. It would mean you had done nothing interesting enough to get other scientists to go, "But..." and "What about..." and "What if..."

Were I Hewlett, or the pro fiction writer I hope to become, I would be happy to have created a character that sparked so many people's imagination. I might not want to read it, but it would be cool to know it was there.

[terrie01.livejournal.com]

I think he'd be a little curious as to why it's all John/Rodney, when it's Carson who got the onscreen kiss. As something of a fanboy from his childhood, he probably gets it a bit more than those actors who aren't huge sci-fi geeks.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I bet he wonders about that.

I've tried to picture Rodney/Carson, but I just don't have the heart to inflict Rodney on Carson. I love Rodney, but that sarcasm would wound him (and I don't want Carson to change; I love his sensitivity).

Sheppard's made of tougher stuff and has that smiling persistence. Rodney could say anything and it'll just bounce right off, until Rodney caves and reveals what a sweetheart he is, which John knows already, because he judges people by their actions and not by their words. That's why they're friends.

Icarus

[terrie01.livejournal.com]

Rodney's harshness is why I tend to see Rodney and Radek together most. Radek can give as good as he gets, and he's shown he can curb rodney when needed. (I find the "you're making mistakes" exchange in Duet to be the slashiest moment ever in the whole series).

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Agreed. There really isn't enough good Rodney/Radek. I find I have trouble writing it, if only because they connect over science and stories with them require more pseudo-science than I can manage.

Icarus

[teaphile.livejournal.com]

I just can't slash Carson. He's such a mama's boy that I wince at the thought of the caricature he could become.

I still need to get around to writing the scene that divulges his petit-point habit.

[bruinsfan.livejournal.com]

It's pretty clear that the vast majority of the slashy joking at conventions, in interviews, and such is between David and Paul McGillion. It may be because of The Kiss, the fact that they seem to have a much closer real life friendship, or because JF still seems to be feeling out the whole sci fi fandom thing in general (but most probably a combo of all three).

McGillion keeps moaning about having to shoot that scene in interviews, but I'm assuming that it's a running joke for him rather than legitimate trauma that he just can't get over.

[thegrrrl2002.livejournal.com]

I don't think the fanfic thing would bother me all that much, since it's clearly about John and Rodney and not DH or JF.

What would embarrass me is me knowing that he seen my fangirly squeeing over him. Especially his physical attributes. Because that's about him, not Rodney.

Er, not that it would slow me down any.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I have some pretty vivid physical description in one of my stories that, if David were sitting across the table from me reading it -- okay, I'm beet red now just thinking of it.

What would embarrass me is me knowing that he seen my fangirly squeeing over him. Especially his physical attributes. Because that's about him, not Rodney.

I suspect that would be the part he'd enjoy. I've one post, Things I've Learned About David Hewlett which has quite a bit of squeeing over his nude scenes. But somehow, I don't think he'd mind. Of course, I'm not that personal since mostly what I say is "more, please!"

Icarus

[dossier.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking. What if David stumbled onto your fanfic? Are there any stories you wouldn't quietly die inside if he read them?

This is a freakout I had years ago, thinking *OMG WTF* Nick Lea might read this! when I wrote a bit of twincest between two characters he portrayed, basically torturing each other and having hot monkey sex in bathtubs.

Teh strain, it was too much for my weak sensibilities. Now I pretty much don't even write, much less post, things that I wouldn't allow my 70 year old auntie to read (although she kinda liked the preslash, so maybe not such a great example...)

but, I think on the flip side (minus RPS, which I find hugely embarrasing on behalf of the victims), he'd probably realize that most fanfiction isn't about him, but an artificial construct that can be reassmbled and clothed to suit the needs of the narrative. otherwise, he'd probably be insane.

yes, I realize that most RPS writers view their RPS characters as the same artificial constructs, I've heard all of the arguments and find it's still more than a little vaguely creepy.

[sage-theory.livejournal.com]

There's a grand total of like, *TWO* stories I wouldn't completely stop breathing over if he read.

One of 'em is a Sam/Rodney set back in the pre-Atlantis period (http://www.paper-hearted.org/prose/knowmebroken.html). And the other is a friendshippy fic with Rodney and Ford (http://www.paper-hearted.org/prose/entropy.html) set in like S1.

I just don't know if I could face what would happen if he read the fics where yanno, Sheppard is doing his clone (http://www.paper-hearted.org/prose/99brill.html) or Weir is giving him the spanking to end all spankings (http://www.paper-hearted.org/unconditional.html).

The rest would just make me cry if he read. Or you know, come completely unscrewed start screaming, "Yes, I write fanfiction. Yes, I write slash. And *YES*, David Hewlett, when you play Rodney McKay you are a scrumptious little sex monkey and I think you'd look really hot doing buttsecks with everyone on Atlantis. Is that so *WRONG*?!?!?!?"

Then I'd curl up in a little ball and implode.

Unless he liked that sort of thing. Then I would burst into a million happy butterflies or something like that.

Whichever.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

This is what I was hoping people would answer!

I think I could handle him reading the one where Rodney goes back in time and writes an embarrassing missive to John (http://www.icarus.slashcity.net/stories/tracesthroughtime.html). He might be amused by the ficlet where John's wondering why the hell he's with Rodney (http://www.icarus.slashcity.net/stories/pastoralsymphony.html), and if he knew the fandom, he might get my deliberately appalling hurt/comfort spoof (http://www.icarus.slashcity.net/stories/appalling.html). The humor piece where Rodney manages to both insult and make a pass at Weir (http://www.icarus.slashcity.net/stories/breedingground.html) he'd probably even enjoy.

The Sumner wake (http://www.icarus.slashcity.net/stories/doowop.html) is mild and gentle, and given he's played gay characters, I wouldn't be too nervous about his reading the one where John and Rodney invent weapons in bed (http://www.icarus.slashcity.net/stories/pavlovian.html).

But I'm not sure what he'd make of Rodney as a figure skater (http://www.icarus.slashcity.net/stories/outofbounds.html) (I can see the strange look now), then there's that really detailed PWP where John's a little pushy (http://www.icarus.slashcity.net/stories/lastportofcall.html) (though it's the purely speculative description of his balls that makes me blush). I'm not at all comfortable about the one where Radek catches John and Rodney fucking (http://www.icarus.slashcity.net/stories/notaprettysight.html) since it isn't particularly flattering. I'm not sure he'd understand the one where John and Rodney had been captured for two years (http://www.icarus.slashcity.net/stories/necromancyfortheliving.html).

Mostly I find that my fics have been surprisingly John-centric. Though I suppose that makes sense since I've been working on defining John.

*goes off happily to read your spanking-fic*

Icarus

[whetherwoman.livejournal.com]

I don't so much cringe thinking about David finding NC-17 fanfic and manips and whatnot... but I really, really cringe thinking about his girlfriend finding it. Oy.

[bruinsfan.livejournal.com]

Yikes. Yeah, considering she probably already has to deal with fans with boundary issues trying to get a little too up-close and personal if he's recognized in public. Imagine the unease if she has to go to a barbecue thrown by one of his co-workers immediately after she's seen an NC-17 photomanip or story featuring them together (and this goes for het as much as slash, though there's probably a lot more of the latter).