The Encyclopedia: Is It Canon?

[icarus]

About eight years ago I stumbled across a debate about Christopher Tolkien's collection of J. R. R. Tolkien's 13 volumes of notes The History of Middle Earth. The question: is it canon?

At the time I didn't understand the debate. What? Tolkien wrote it, right? So it counts as canon. Of course it does!

Or does it?

Now with the impending Encyclopedia of Harry Potterness, I understand why it's a question.

In the case of Tolkien's notes, they were compiled by his son, not Tolkien, and many of the working notes were at odds with what ended up in the actual Lord of the Rings. Because they were notes. And nothing more.

J. K. Rowling on the other hand will be overseeing her own project. Tying up all the loose ends of canon in her own way, on her own terms.

My answer to that: Nuh-uh. No way. She's alive, she can still write more books. In this case the Encyclopedia is an end run around expanding her own canon. It's cheap, spurious, and easy to throw out answers in an interview or slap together entries for an Encyclopedia. She can write all the stories she wants in her mind -- without giving us full and complete actual stories. She doesn't have to go through the hard work of processing the complete universe that creates a canon.

I think it was Orson Scott Card who pointed out that a story starts to write itself, it begins to take off of its own accord and run with your pen. The reason why she's contradicted some of her own answers from interviews in the past is because the creation of a story, of a canon, is this process. Writing will change what you "mentate" and "think through" with your purely intellectual faculties.

I don't accept this cheap shortcut of hers. Unless she takes the time to pick up her quill pen and write us a real story, I do not accept the Quik-Quotes Quill version of a canon.



P.S.: Whether or not the Encyclopedia agrees with my fanfic doesn't affect me in the least, because the vast majority my HP fics were written pre-Half Blood Prince and aren't canon compliant in any way. This is just my little manifesto on what is and isn't canon.

Comments

[izzybeth.livejournal.com]

as far as i'm concerned, it's basically the same as the books. it isn't gonna stop anyone from writing fic (Star Wars has more Official Whatevers than you can swing a cat at and that fandom's still going strong). i figure some people will pick and choose what they like and don't like from it, some people will treat it like "real canon," and some people will probably ignore it completely. because you're right, it's not a book. (personally, i'll probably just ignore it.)

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

It wouldn't matter if she drew her entire Encyclopedia from fanfic and agreed with everything we've ever written -- it's not the same thing as a story. Too easy, sorry, nope, forget it.

I can't help but take this as an attempt to try to answer and respond to all the fanfiction out there with an "official" version. I'm ready with my forefinger on the toilet handle for the first person who says "but it says in the Encyclopedia--!" *FLUSSSSSSSHHHHHH!*

Hmm. *Icarus looks cheerfully into the toilet* They swirl when they go down.

Icarus

[imkalena.livejournal.com]

Frankly, I took her choice to kill off one of the twins as a response to Twincest, and I don't even like canon Fred or George, and don't care whether they ever make it into the sack together. I felt that killing off quite that many important canon characters was an attempt to close out her universe so less people would be tempted to write in it.

(Otherwise, how did all those brilliant witches/wizards fall to such staggering icons of ineptitude as the DEs have been shown to be in every book?)

So I could hardly agree with you more. :)

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Well, she can't create any more canon -- the Encyclopedia ain't it -- unless she writes us more stories.

Which, hey, I'm cool with that.

Icarus

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

I'm not at all disappointed in her decision to do this. I don't recall it being mentioned specifically in conjunction with her latest announcement, but she has talked about an intention to publish more meta-books before, for charity, a la Fantastic Beasts and Quidditch through the Ages, so I assume this was what she was talking about.

Those two slim books have made 16 million pounds for Comic Relief. Without going to a conversion website, what is that, like a cool 30 million USD? Some A-list actor gives one million to charity, and it's huge news.

I don't think that fans have to accept it as omg gospel or anything, and it will almost certainly contain contradictions to the novels and probably self-contradictions, but I support the project and will buy it.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm not against writing it, and I'm very happy Christopher Tolkien published his father's notes. What a wonderful insight into the creation of Middle Earth. But I anticipate many voices and little reviews to the effect of "...but it's against canon, according to page 972 of the Encyclopedia." *Flussssshhhh*

Bear in mind, this doesn't impact my fics in the least. They're almost all slash, and 99% of them predate HBP and are not canon compliant.

Icarus

[elf]

I will grudgingly accept the encyclopedia... if it doesn't contradict a shred of book-canon anywhere. (Since the books contradict themselves in spots, I'm not too worried about that.)

However, one clash between the Encyc and the books, and I get to pick and choose.

I believe that, unlike Tolkein, she did not spend years sorting out the back history and side details of every character or location she mentioned; she did not create a cohesive set of linguistic rules for the spells; she did not decide on the lifespans and mating habits of every magical creature in the books. And she's unaware of what details she has mentioned... unlike JRRT, she didn't start with reams of notes and condense them into "an epic story, plus side bits"--she started with a story, and has pondered on some of the side details enough to want to say what's in her head about them.

Well, um. No. Her speculations on Hermione's cousins or guard schedules at Azkaban are no more real than ours... unless she puts them into stories. They weren't part of the background of canon when it was written; inserting them later is not the same. We know where the gaps are, where she's left things wide-open, and where they aren't.

We knew that Snape's fate was decided in canon. We knew that Neville's part in the Final Battle would be described in book 7. (Even if it was described the way Amelia Bones was...i.e. with no particular mention.) We knew any thoughts we had about those were speculations. And we also knew, because we know stories, that Hermione's cousins or lack thereof is *not* covered in canon, that the age of the furniture at 12 Grimmauld Place is flexible by the needs of a story, that the mating habits (or not) of dementors are nonspecified.

I'm with you--if she wants to inflict more canon on us, instead of "author's speculation and notes," it'll have to be in story form. I can accept non-story canon if it existed pre-story, or is woven seamlessly into story (like Snape's "I may vomit" in OOTP), but I'm not accepting any editorial edicts.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

if she wants to inflict more canon on us, instead of "author's speculation and notes," it'll have to be in story form. I can accept non-story canon if it existed pre-story, or is woven seamlessly into story (like Snape's "I may vomit" in OOTP), but I'm not accepting any editorial edicts.

Brava! She's perfectly capable of writing us a series of short stories. Those I would accept. Encyclopedia? No, Percy love, that doesn't count. *pulls the quill out of Percy's hand*

Icarus

[clare-dragonfly.livejournal.com]

You know, I think you've just clarified to me why I'm so uncomfortable with this whole "Encyclopedia" concept. Thank you!

[harveywallbang.livejournal.com]

wow. you weren't kidding.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Heh. She knows the fanfiction is out there. No doubt she's read a few. If she's wants to contradict it, she do a new Harry Potter trilogy, or better yet, several books of short stories. *nods*

Until then, forget it.

Icarus

[ncp.livejournal.com]

I'm ignoring the "Encyclopedia". It's not part of the story of "Harry Potter and his Two Best Friends and How They and a Bunch of Other Cool People Rid the World of a Terrifying Dark Wizard" I mean. I'll read it for interest, but I won't take it as canon.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Right on. And I admit, I'm hoping she'll reveal Percy is gay. But I'm not holding my breath. *snickering*

Icarus

[slashpine.livejournal.com]

HP Encyclopedia, by JKR. n. see: meta.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

LOL. Yeah, zigackly. Not canon.

By the way, I can never figure out your LJ name. Do you slash pines or pine for slash? :D

Icarus

[slashpine.livejournal.com]

Ahahahaha. - both. No, actually the second: pine for slash :-)

I've also waded thru slash (debris from logging) under pine forests, but not as a logger! The slash pine per se is found across the southeastern US. It's very ordinary, but useful. I feel a kinship with it :-)

[slashpine.livejournal.com]

Heck, I always hit the wrong button.

Was going to add: Your name? I like it, dunno what it's from but it trips from the tongue in style.

[nufaciel.livejournal.com]

I'm of the mind that stuff like this is only canon if it fits my evil fanfic plans. If it doesn't, I throw it out and make new shiny stuff up that caters to my every whim.

Same thing with Tolkien. I work with it only if the note stuff fits my needs. To me, canon is the actual books written and published by the author themselves. I don't even particularly consider the Silmarillion canon, because it was compiled (and many stories completed) by Christopher Tolkien, and he's admitted that he rushed through the job due to pressure to publish it post-JRRT's death. He made many mistakes along the way that directly contradicted his father's own ideas (of which for some things, there seemed to be a bajillion different versions...or you know, four or five). Yet, for some people, the Silm is practically the Middle-Earth bible for the First Age and before. Canon tends to be in the eye of the beholder.

But for me...the Encyclopedia, while nice and I'll totally buy for charity, won't affect any future fanfic. Hell, book canon won't even affect that. :P

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Ha. If she decides Percy is gay I'll totally accept it as confirmation -- but I won't (for fear of hypocrisy!) call it canon.

No doubt there will be fertile fanfic bunnies popping out of that Encyclopedia.

Icarus

[winterthunder.livejournal.com]

Fellow Card fan? I have a deep an abiding love for the Ender quartet and not many people in my circle have read them. All that have have done so because I gave them one of the books!

Re: the encyclopedia. It seems to me like she can't quite make a clean break with Harry, despite her intentions to do so. As to whether it's canon? I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, Orson Scott Card is brilliant. Ender's Game is a marvelous ethical masterpiece and I've forced it onto many people. But Card is also a creative writing professor and has a few books out Characterization and Point of View which taught me most of what I know about writing.

Icarus

[electricandroid.livejournal.com]

Not letting JKR's separation anxiety worry me. In complete agreement... just glad I don't help out with the hp-lexicon, I'd be seething right now if I did. We'll see if she actually manages to do it - but have to say, I'm way beyond the age where I buy an encyclopedia to read for fun!

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Ugh, really. I hadn't considered the hard work of the Lexicon that even she relied on that now about to be rendered irrelevant.

I can't see myself buying it. Even with my Lord of the Rings obsession (way stronger than my HP addiction -- I've read the Lord of the Rings 37+ times, while I've only read Half Blood Prince once) I've only read the Silmarillion a couple times.

Icarus

[dancing-moon.livejournal.com]

Actually, I read some years ago that she mentioned she may even work with the creator of the Lexicon to create the Harrypedia. Which I think would be a dream come true for that guy.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Ah. Allow me a moment... *Icarus cranks up the old victrola* ...to change my tune. Cool!

Icarus

[unlikely2.livejournal.com]

This is the woman who famously can't add up and relies on the 'Lexicon'?

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Point. Though I've no doubt she'll have plenty of editorial help.

Er. And she can consult the Lexicon, as noted above, and it's a good point. This is really not fair to the people who worked all these years keeping track of these details.

Icarus

[imkalena.livejournal.com]

Yes, and this time the editors actually might put a little WORK into it. :P

[fractalreality.livejournal.com]

After seeing a recent interview with her, I think this is more canon than people realise - she's been storing notes and asides for nearly the past 15years on who does what, family histories and whatnot; if you've seen the sheer amount of notes she has in her house, it's terrifying.

The fact she couldn't fit these in and wanted to is all the reason to share them with everyone - they were edited out, but to me they are still canon. So the fact her epilogue was more in depth and talked of the Hogwarts staff, occupations of the Trio, other peoples kids etc just means she gets to share with readers what she wanted to originally.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

If Tolkien's notes are not canon -- which they are not -- then neither is this.

Sorry. I have lots of notes for many of my stories. In one case I have a follow-up conversation to Beg Me For It (http://www.icarus.slashcity.net/stories/begmeforit.html) where Ron tells Harry about what happened with Draco.

I may, in my mind, think that's what happened. But it wasn't included for good reason. It didn't fit the story, it dragged the story out too much and diminished the ending, turning it into a story about Harry and Ron's friendship rather than Ron and Draco. That's a darn good reason to not include it, and the story itself drew those lines.

The lines of canon are drawn by the story itself, not by the author.

So no matter what I may imagine for my stories after I write the last word, the canon ends when the story does.

Heh. If that weren't true, no story would ever end because an author is never done.

Icarus

[quivo.livejournal.com]

I don't accept this cheap shortcut of hers.

Exacatacally. :D. I'll be sure to read the damn thing, but for fanfic purposes only. Which probably defeats the point of its being released, but oh well XD

[sociofemme.livejournal.com]

I agree entirely, and I've been having this argument in meatspace with my partner ever since the JKR interviews and rumours about the encyclopedia. He's a Star Wars fan, so you'd think that he'd be able to see my point, but sadly, no.

[pinkfinity.livejournal.com]

Would you either be willing to post this in the Workship section of FAPark (http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark/forums) or allow me to post some of it & link back here?

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Go for it. Although all my (non-NC-17) fics are on FA, I know zip about FAP, so if you want to post a bit and link it back, that would be great.

Icarus

[bridgetmc.livejournal.com]

I'm sure it'll be interesting, especially if I get backstories of characters that aren't the Trio (+ Ginny). I'd love to know the backstory of Eileen Prince and why in the world did she marry Tobias Snape (he's a Muggle with no money and she's ugly to boot so how did this couple get together and stayed together for years I have no clue). And in terms of those minor characters, I'll probably use the Encyclopedia as a type of canon, or at least something to fall back on for said details. Seamus has a lightning scar on his right arse cheek? Luna likes to spend every full moon naked in her backyard? Sure, give me those details. Interesting, irrevelant fun times that I can slip into fics if need be.

But if she's writing in there about how Harry is an Auror with Ron who made the department uber duber terrific (yeah, I had a good chuckle over that one), I'll pass. Backstory is fine, but once she starts going into portions past chapter 36 talking about what happened in those 19 years and past the epilogue, I'm done. Sorry, Rowling, but that's cheating. Go write me another book if you want to write these details or else you're just doing fanfiction on your own work.

[ness-va.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't treat it as cannon in it's purest sense, but I'd hold it somewhat close. Same thing as her "School books" that she did for comic relief.

[grey-fuzzy.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm not a very prolific fanfic writer, but it almost seems not worth it to worry about the definition of 'canon' and whether or not the encyclopedia 'counts.' I was under the impression that it would mostly be comprised of ideas and backstory she had floating in her head as she wrote HP that she couldn't fit into the story. If JKR wasn't pretty damn imaginative and especially skilled at world-building, I doubt many of us would be in the HP fandom at all, so if she wants to add onto that with some other interesting ideas and backstory, I'm all for it. Some people seem to be worrying that she's limiting fandom and imposing more strict canon with this encyclopedia, but I kind of see it the opposite way: the more she elaborates, the more ideas it'll spark in fandom. Also, everyone ignores canon when it suits them anyways ;D!

[featherxquill.livejournal.com]

I definitely agree. I can count FB and QttA as 'canon' in a sense, but that's mainly because they're not about characters. Learning about Quidditch and animals is fascinating, little insights into the universe, but character is a different thing entirely, and I agree with you that it's about story.

There are certain things you only realise about a character when you try and write them into a narrative. I love her characters, I love her world, but it's very easy to write a minor, background character into a story doing something that pushes the plot along (or add atmosphere) without worrying about the implications of it. Fred's death felt like that to me. It was absolutely heartbreaking and painful for both Harry and the reader, but she never really had to deal with it. It's canon, yes, of course it is, but she says 'Fred is dead' and the Weasleys are mourning, and that's it. She doesn't have to sit down and write about George and how he dealt with it, what he made of his life now that a part of himself was gone. It wasn't part of her main story, so she didn't have to deal with it, didn't have to feel it. I don't dislike her for it, since she obviously felt it was necessary, and will accept it because it's part of her canon.

An encyclopaedia would be nothing like that. It kind of scares me, as a writer of very minor characters. Creating characters is fun, and so is creating backgrounds for them, but when you're doing it for something like an encyclopaedia, outside of a narrative, it's far too easy to do it with no emotional attachment at all. It would be easy to say 'hey, Minerva McGonagall *ponders* married a muggle after school and had a child, then lost them in the war on Grindelwald and spent the rest of her life as a sad old spinster'. It would be easy. Too easy. She doesn't have to sit down and write that into a narrative, doesn't have to think about it beyond an intellectual level. Or she could write about Rita Skeeter and simply thicken the cardboard cutout she is in the books without thinking that hey, even if you're a venemous bitch of a journalist you're a three-dimensional person. It makes it far too easy to see characters as simply that - words on a page - and not as the people they become when you write them into a narrative and have to consider them as though they were really existing, with histories and emotions and morals etc.

The things Jo says about some of her characters make me think she misses that, sometimes. Calling people's attraction to Draco Malfoy/Severus Snape/etc 'bad boy' syndrome, and the like. She loves Harry, he's real inside her head, as are Hermione and Ron and many of her other characters. That's not to say Malfoy and Snape aren't, but she seems to think that everyone sees her world the way she created it, and that the versions of the characters in her head are the only ways to interpret them.

Sorry, Jo. The author is dead. Or at least not the only authority. Writing an encyclopaedia is cheap, if you expect people to take it as gospel. She can tell me that Rita Skeeter (for example, and because she's the character I've written about the most) is a one-dimensional bitch of a woman with absolutely no soul and give her a history that says similar if she wants to, but I won't take it as 'canon' until she can write me a story with her as the main character and manage to keep her like that throughout it.

Same goes for any minor character. It's easy to say things about them and presume that they work, but until you write them, it's impossible to know who they really are.

[lttledvl.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I've never much gotten into the books that expand upon the universe. (I remember skimming through 'the World of Pern' once - can't remember the exact title, sorry)

I'm not terribly interested in random notes and bits and pieces. Now if the book has a couple of little stories in it...I'd probably just read those and skip everything else.

I'm one of those readers that doesn't like to have everything in the world spoon-fed to me. I like to have my imagination fill in the blanks, if you don't mind...

As my current icon advises "Screw Canon"... *g*

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

That's the difference between Tolkien's Silmarillion and The History of Middle Earth. The Sil, while definitely feeling "assembled" and slapped together, had little stories and moments of brilliance. The bravery of the rear guard of Gondolin as it fell, for example.

Icarus

[skuf.livejournal.com]

Of course it's more canon than eh, something that's not at all canon (sorry, my mind's really slow today), but it's not as canon as the books. Cf. also stupid comic book spin-offs of tv shows.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Ha. Interesting point. Degrees of canon. I like it.

Icarus