In honor of Gaia... fic departing the fandom.

[icarus]

As you all must have heard by now, gaiaanarchy is posting her last unfinished SGA fics and leaving the fandom. Usually when I read dramatic departures, well, I remember my friend Red who left an old forum of mine. Annually. But Gaia I believe because her motivating forces are pretty strong (a 29,000 word story and only one review? Ouch). And she's also putting her WIPs out on the front lawn as a sort of SGA yard sale -- without the tags that read "50 cents or best offer."

I'm not departing the fandom but I do have a WIP to put out on the front lawn. Or rather, part of a WIP. But it is complete. In a way. At least... you have the ending. It's been in front of you the whole time, like that Easter Egg that's in the most obvious place that no one ever finds.

A year ago I wrote a story called Last Port Of Call. It was only the first part of a (roughly) 24-part long fic. There was a storm of controversy at the time with a lot of interesting feedback that would probably make my year if I were doing a thesis in Psychology and Gender Relations. I had enough material for a guaranteed A, I'm sure of it.

I never told anyone (well, okay, I told auburnnothenna) but at the same time I posted it (and by same time, I mean the same day), I also posted my story outline for the rest of the story.

Yep. That's right. I gave away the rest of the story. Without telling anyone that's what I did.

You see, when I told people that I knew that they'd like Last Port Of Call as a whole once it was complete -- I really knew. Because the same people who hated the first part loved the story outline. Yes, I do know, because you reviewed it and you told me you loved it. (ETA: It took a tremendous amount of discipline on my part to not point this out to you guys at the time, to put the story first before winning an argument. But I'm writer first and foremost and I'm not going to spoil my own reveal, no matter how tempting.)

The story outline was About 10 Days Before The Wraith Attack.

I even used a little of the same dialogue. I thought for sure that would give it away.

Part of why I posted the outline was that I was afraid the story was so big, and so difficult, that I would never finish it, and I wanted everyone to know the end. At the same time, I didn't admit it because I still wanted to give Last Port Of Call the good ol' college try. After I posted them I thought, "Okay. I'm going to have a little fun with this." I planned to post Last Port Of Call as a WIP and see who figured it out. (There was one person who did just from what I posted, noting with tongue-in-cheek that it was the same premise with even the same dialog. Ding-ding-ding, you win a prize, you smart cookie.)

It was going to be cool because About 10 Days Before The Wraith Attack was John's perspective with 20/20 hindsight, his gloss of events, while Last Port Of Call was the LP of what really happened. Both were going to be written from a very tight John viewpoint. It started to turn into an interesting exploration of memory and how we re-write it in hindsight.

But after the storm, I found that the story had changed in my mind. There was a fierce demand to write Rodney's point of view and I felt a need to defend the story rather than writing it as I intended. I wrote a second chapter... and it came out from Rodney's point of view, which really wasn't the story but rather an answer to the unhappy women who criticized it. It had changed and... wasn't that exploration of memory any more. It shrank and became just what people wanted. It made people happy. Gave those who needed to see Rodney's perspective what they wanted. But I'd lost the structural integrity of the story.

So here you go. Here's the ending of Last Port Of Call.

Comments

[an-kayoh.livejournal.com]

Huh. I know I friended because I had just finished what was posted of Out of Bounds and I wanted to make sure I caught the next part, but the first time I ever considered it, it was because of Last Port of Call. I loved it.

I loved it so much, that I didn't even really notice or "mind" that About 10 Days Before the Wraith Attack (which I don't think I read the same day, or even noticed was written by the same person *is thick* for awhile) was the "same" story. It was like enjoying a book so much you read all of the different editions. I remember commenting when I found Last Port of Call (or was it 10 Days? Er) and hoping that you would write more, you replied that you were concerned that if you continued it, it wouldn't be as good. Sequel Syndrome and all that. But with Rodney's POV, I got exactly what you said, I got what I wanted. It was a little bit of closure.

Writing is hard. Reviewing is hard. Both actions have you put yourself out there at the mercy of whoever happens by. I know I sometimes refrain from commenting because I can't manage to say exactly what I want and I hate being misconstrued. That being said, I think I'm going to go clear out my 'to review' folder. /guilt

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I've always thought that Last Port Of Call was the better story of the two. And yeah, when you asked about it, it was at the point where the story was really changing.

It was... hard to get that deep into John's POV that I saw nothing else and let him completely take the wheel. With worries piling up about the story, I don't think I could have done it.

But, I swear, people just wanting to hear Rodney's POV had no effect on it. It was the anger and the accusations of John date-raping Rodney (as if he were a real person) that were the problem.

Icarus

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Huh, I think I missed the Ten Days story (but I don't generally read the Flashfic comm, especially not lately. *snob*). Interesting, this.

Paying taxes is a unifying experiences fundamental to democracy and the rule of law.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Appropo of nothing, I actually read the first line of the IRS tax manual. This is really funny!

Okay, back to the subject at hand....

I never promoted it much. It just went in the Flashfic and my site -- and that's it. I sort of wanted to sweep it under the rug. *sheepish*

Icarus

[whetherwoman.livejournal.com]

You know, I never quite understood all the foofoorah about Last Port. Yeah, John was kind of an asshole, but John is kind of an asshole, especially with Rodney, and I like that.

I don't know if I saw it at the time, but I can totally see Last Port as a very detailed portion of About 10 Days now. I like the detail in Last Port, and how it doesn't gloss over the screwed-up-ness that is just under the surface of About 10 Days. If you ever did feel like continuing the story with that level of detail, I would read with pleasure. I love the bit in About 10 Days where John confesses in detail about what he's scared and not scared of, and Rodney votes that he's just screwed up, and I would be really curious to see how that would actually work!

[heygirlie.livejournal.com]

That is all just... fascinating. No, really!

And I'm guilty, because I didn't leave feedback for Last Port of Call when I first read it. I only read a few comments from the huge kerfluffle it made (from other LJ posts on flists), but hearing about it I remember thinking readers were probably upset not because John was a jerk, but because he jerk-ish actions were not resolved by the end. Which I now see is because it's only the first part of the larger story.

And I really like LPoC, too. I really liked seeing John's asshole side, almost nobody writes it. And it's canon! I was never bothered by it because even though he enjoys messing with his friends, he never thinks he's doing anything wrong or really mean, except maybe at the very end in a kind of regretful way.

Also, awkward sex. Awkward, frustrating, emotionally-charged sex. First-time sex with Rodney really couldn't be any other way. :)

[reedfem.livejournal.com]

Due to the swiss cheese state of my brain, I confess I didn't immediately recall the fic or any controversy, so I went back and re-read. I like it now and I liked it then, and I do remember thinking at the time that the one story was a bit bare bones, but still enjoyable, which makes sense now that I see it as an outline. Sometimes you have to hit me over the head with the obvious. I'm sorry that the story was ruined for you and you ended up writing what people wanted to read instead of what you wanted to write.

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

I think that's one of the unfortunate downsides of the interactive nature of fanfic/fannish writing. I remember back in the day when I read at fanfic.net and routinely watched epic stories go badly astray as the author twisted in the winds of reader opinion. I think your personality is too forceful to be led that way, but it can (obviously) still take a toll. :-(

I'm sad to read that about Gaia, but I totally understand the frustration. I have a friend in another fandom who wrote this gorgeous, epic story and I think I may have been the only one to respond to it. I think it's yet another aspect of the unwritten fannish contract -- if someone spends their time creating something of value for the fandom, the fandom needs to acknowledge it. (I know, I know, volumes have been written about whether or not feedback is obligatory, but I'm of the opinion that you thank someone when they give you a gift, and when you take and take without ever giving anything back, you shouldn't be surprised when the giver decides to spend her talents elsewhere.)

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I'm usually pretty good about ignoring what people want (for example, some want Rodney to start competing again in Out Of Bounds or for John and Rodney to skate pairs -- nope *g*).

But an intense blasting that goes on daily for a little under a month -- well, it works. Which I think is the point. The goal is to punish the writer and make sure they write nothing similar to this story. And to make an example of them to make sure others get the message, too.

It's extremely effective. I know people who won't post SGA stories they've written because of what they've seen happen to people in the fandom over race, sexism, you name it. The PC-ness has a chilling effect. So... SGA gets a lot of fluff. It's not surprising.

More generally with Gaia's situation, I think it's a problem with the difference between a WIP and a finished epic.

The WIP gets blown about and twisted in the winds, but people seem to leave lots of encouragement. The epic is untouched by the wishes of the reader but it's often so overwhelming for the reader in one gulp that the response is often, "Burp. Thank you." So you never get to see how people responded to sections in the middle, for example.

If it's an intense story that makes people think -- well, I noticed a pattern in HP years ago. Humor fics get a lot of really quick reviews. But for something that's really powerful readers often walk away from it to think, and usually, while the story had an impact, they don't come back to respond.

I know, I know, volumes have been written about whether or not feedback is obligatory, but I'm of the opinion that you thank someone when they give you a gift, and when you take and take without ever giving anything back, you shouldn't be surprised when the giver decides to spend her talents elsewhere.

Yeah, she's not upset about it. It's just... if there's no evidence of people reading, there's not a lot of point to posting the stories. At that point you might as well go do something else.

I'm hoping that she's interested in the Supernatural fandom. I think her style and observations will work well there.

Icarus

[amalthia]

maybe she should post her fics to a website and add a counter? that's how you can at least tell if people are stopping by. I figured for every 100 people that read a story maybe 1 will leave feedback.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

It didn't sound like that was the only reason. It seemed to be just the physical evidence of a more general "this isn't working out" malaise.

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

The goal is to punish the writer and make sure they write nothing similar to this story. And to make an example of them to make sure others get the message, too.

That is so...sad. I wonder if that sort of bullying is reflective of society in general these days. I know you talk about other fandoms feeling different, but your experience with those other fandoms was longer ago, if that makes any sense. (Or maybe I'm just still feeling crushed after watching the Christian segment of Christiane Amanpour's God's Warriors series.) Unfortunately, a 'live and let live' attitude seems to be thin on the ground anywhere you look, including fandom.

You make a very good point that long, serious stories are hard to feedback. It takes time and thought to put together the sort of LOC a story like that deserves. A one-liner seems like it's not enough of a response and it's just *way* too easy to put off writing a 'deserving' response until it's forgotten altogether.

Then there are people like me who sort of muddy the waters, in that I tend to only feedback light, happy stories because I tend to only *read* light, happy stories. Life is hard; I look to my entertainment to escape that, not recreate it. I would never want to contribute to a chilling effect on the enjoyment of readers and writers of angst and darkfic, and yet I guess I unwittingly play a part just by being a non-consumer. :-/

[bruinsfan.livejournal.com]

I have to confess you completely fooled me at the time of posting, as I remember noticing similarities of plot between the two stories (while the shared dialogue completely zoomed over my head) and thinking that "About 10 Days Before The Wraith Attack" must have inspired the more detailed story afterwards as a variation on a theme.

I am sorry that the fandom (over)reaction derailed your intentions for continuing "Last Port of Call," as I absolutely loved it. I was already following and enjoying your "Out of Bounds" WIP, but "Last Port" was the work that made me start stopping by your journal every day in anticipation.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Actually, I wrote the first section of Last Port Of Call without the outline in comments to iibnf. Then I wrote the outline -- and finished the rest of Last Port Of Call.

As for the fandom (yes, I would agree it was overreaction), what happened was interesting. It changed how I felt about the story. It turned it from something that was an interesting exploration of John into something that I felt defensive about.

So the shape of the story and what was creating it became different. Like the winds changed. And it's not like, "Meep. You're mean. I'm not going to give you my story now. Pbbbllt!" If anything I'd deliberately post something people would hate if I'm mad at them. *g*

But what happened is that my feelings about it changed, so of course it changed (since it's coming out of my mind), and then it became something I wasn't interested in writing any more.

I didn't want to write another John-and-Rodney romance. I wanted to write about how John sees. What his mind was like under this pressure. What his desires were like. That push and tug of selfishness and wanting to do what's right. Rodney was the dolphin tangled in the net -- but it was the net that I was interested in.

Icarus

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

As one of your loyal readers I have to pipe up and say yes, I noticed the similarity in the stories at the time you posted them. Yes, I noticed the same dialogue. I commented on Last Port of Call because I thought it was a fantastic story; I did not comment on About Ten Days Before The Wraith Attack because it felt like a summary rather than a story to me: all telling, no showing.

I assumed, at the time, that you were doing a pair of stories with different takes on the same theme, in much the same way that Zoe Rayne wrote Icing on the Cake (http://zoe.vaportraces.com/fic/icing.html) and Strange Attractors (http://zoe.vaportraces.com/fic/attractors.html). Many authors write multiple stories on the same idea, working out different variations on a theme. Given the prevalence for this type of writing, which has even gained it's own subgenre of "Five Things" stories, there was no reason to assume that the stories were any more connected than that. In fact, the author notes state that they were two separate stories inspired by the same line.

The implication that your readers were hypocritical or unperceptive for liking one story and disliking another when they were "clearly" the same story is a little annoying. I'm a firm believer that what the reader should react to is what is actually in the story, not the author's intent—especially not the author's unstated intent. It's a bit of a stretch to expect everyone to have made the connection and let that interpretation, external to the story, influence their opinion.

Even if the link had been explicit, I'm not sure it would have changed my opinion of Last Port of Call. As you said, things happen when you're writing that change the story from the outline you expected it to follow. Ideas are easy, execution is hard, so I don't usually put much stock by outlines. You can tell me I'll love the ending, but I want to see it before I make up my mind.

In other words, had you finished Last Port of Call as originally planned, people may still have had a problem with it because of how it was executed. As you say, About Ten Days Before the Wraith Attack glosses over the negative. So when you shine a spotlight on the negative, of course people react differently.

It's like "When Harry Met Sally"—my mother has always hated the film. I finally found out that it was because she'd turned the thing off right after Harry and Sally slept together and it destroyed their friendship. Even telling her that the ending was happy didn't change her mind—what she'd seen was a story with a terribly unhappy ending. You could say from a structural standpoint that Last Port of Call is similar—it's a romance that stopped before the happy resolution was reached and so, taken as a stand alone, was heartbreaking.

I enjoyed it a lot as a standalone and was willing to give it a lot of leeway because it was a WIP and I expected it to follow a romantic storyline…similar to About Ten Days, in fact. But you may have gone in a different direction entirely, so I was reserving judgment on the whole thing until I saw which way it went.

I'm reminded of one writer in my writing group who when we tell him that his story has serious flaws or makes no sense he tells that we just don't "get it" and it's "cool." That's pretty much what you're saying here: we don't get it, Last Port of Call was really a happy story. What I say to that is Last Port of Call speaks for itself, and it says great things. Coming back a year later and telling all of us that we missed the point is, to me, irrelevant to my interpretation of that story.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

The implication that your readers were hypocritical or unperceptive for liking one story and disliking another when they were "clearly" the same story is a little annoying.

Huh? What? No.

I deliberately misled you guys in the summaries. I didn't want you to figure it out... until maybe it became so obvious that you might. That's why I didn't bring it up in the fight. But I was impressed with people who figured it out anyway.

*reads the rest of your comment*

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Actually, for me, dubious consent is a bulletproof kink, so I would never have been disturbed or unhappy with Last Port of Call.

People don't have to like it. I've never cared if people liked it. I'd rather people did, sure, but that was never the issue.

When I read a story that I don't like (like deathfic, augh) -- I don't attack the author. As far as I'm concerned it's a free country (internet) where people don't have to always write what I like. If I don't enjoy it, I pop open a story I do enjoy.

I'm reminded of one writer in my writing group who when we tell him that his story has serious flaws or makes no sense he tells that we just don't "get it" and it's "cool."

So your friend, do people attack him?

Does he get seven emails from the same person over a four-day period about how wrong it was for him to write this story in the first place?

Does your group each have a blog and start taking veiled public stands about his story in order to pillory it and make sure no one else writes anything like it?

Does your group, when he's at the grocery store talking about something completely different a week later, bring it up and berate him in public for it?

After he brings his story to your group, does the anger go on daily for about three weeks (including the person who keeps contacting him over and over)?

Do you guys gang up on people who like the story in the group to convince them not to recommend it?

Do people start bringing up examples about politically incorrect his story is, and how they themselves have gone through a similar terrible trauma and it has traumatized them terribly to see the characters do this?

Do people bring it up four months later in a completely unrelated situation?

If that's not what happened to him then your example falls short.

Icarus

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

I'm a little confused by this response—I was not addressing the flaming in my comment, but rather your post about the story itself. Perhaps the two cannot be discussed separately.

In your post you seem to be pulling a Scooby Doo ending: "Haha! About Ten Days was the outline all along! If only you meddlin' kids had figured it out!" But as the two stories were posted as unrelated stories, the one is irrelevant in a discussion of the other. Responses to the one don't disprove responses to the other, which is what you seem to be saying when you imply that you could have won the argument just by pointing out the connection. I, like many readers, took you at your word and reacted to them as separate stories. You're kind of saying "Gotcha!" to your readers, which is why I used the example I did: if an author tells me I'm just not seeing what they intended the story to be, I tend to say, well, then the story isn't what they intended it to be.

That being said, I couldn't begin to tell you why people reacted so badly and I'm sorry fandom's done wrong by you. I've always liked Last Port of Call. Still do.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

No, no, the "zoinks!" Scooby-Doo ending is not what I meant at all, but I can see how you got there.

This post could have been a posting of an incomplete section of Last Port Of Call as an abandoned WIP, which is what Gaia is doing now. (I might have more though I don't think so.)

But in this case the ending was right there, so it's not so much as abandoned as it's never fleshed out. So you have the story. Not what I was planning to write in its entirety, but at least you know how it ends, which in its way is a little better than an incomplete WIP.

I did something similar for a reader of a Percy fic of mine. She wrote a really detailed review and I had to explain that I wasn't finishing the story. What I did though was send her the story outline so at least she knew how it ended.

That being said, I couldn't begin to tell you why people reacted so badly and I'm sorry fandom's done wrong by you. I've always liked Last Port of Call. Still do.

The most common reason cited in people's reviews was "I was date raped" and "this reminds me of that experience."

Which, frankly, I was sexually abused as a child and I don't read things that disturb me. Occasionally I do encounter things that hit buttons for me -- which is where, as an adult, I hit the Back button. I feel it's my responsibility to police what I read, not the responsibility of the author.

Beyond those personal responses, it snowballed, and people just enjoyed dishing out the abuse.

Icarus

[tonicollins.livejournal.com]

Re: leaving fandom because you're not getting feedback.

If that's why you write, then by all means, one should go.

One should also bear in mind that the not everyone reads at the speed of light and between the sga Big Bang and the daily mcshep, some of us are behind on reading new stories daily.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

A 29,000 word story, of the quality gaiaanarchy writes? One review? That's pretty bad, tonicollins. I mean, god, all that effort to an empty room.

She says that it's a sign. I would take it the same way.

There are other issues as well, ones that I don't share. She doesn't like the overlap between TPTB and fandom. It makes her feel uncomfortable.

I think that she tends to write intense angsty, rich stories, and the SGA fandom isn't very receptive to angst. This year it's especially true I'm finding.

[tonicollins.livejournal.com]

all that effort to an empty room

I've been in one fandom or another since 1973. Do you know what a LOC is? They were few and far between and precious when and if they arrived.

I've also experienced more than one author threatening to "take their ball and leave" because they felt entitled to more than they were receiving. I'm not saying that that's what Gaia's doing, I can only say what behaviour I've observed in the past.

I realize that in this day and age one expects immediate feedback to anything put up in the hopes of entertaining others. And if she's not been getting the comments she feels she deserves over the past year then by all means, do whatever you feel is necessary to maintain sanity.

I can only speak for myself but I've read through her story summaries and can honestly say that only one appeals to me. There is so much to read on the net and it comes faster than ever. You can be the best writer out there and if your summary makes me say, "Huh. Don't care." Reading it, when there is so much out there that does call to me, isn't going to happen.

I feel I should say that any vehemence you may be reading into this stems more from my fence issues right now than anything else.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Let me add something here in all fairness to Gaia (it was brought up in another journal): the silence when she posts stories is something that she's been noticing since last fall. She even put out a post to her f-list asking if she was doing anything wrong. I think that was back in October.

So it isn't just that the McShep Match and the SGA Big Bang is taking center stage. This, for her, has been going on for the better part of a year.

Where there's no interest it's natural for people to move on. Yes, yes, we're all supposed to be writing in our garrets for the love of writing -- but I'm willing to bet that's not why anyone posts. ;)

[titc.livejournal.com]

I'm horribly late when reading long stories, & Gaia's are often long, so i haven't read a lot. I still plan on reading, enjoying & commenting on others one day, so she'll get some more FB one day. I'm sad she's leaving, because I really enjoyed her fics. I didn't know she was, & I hope she finds some other place wher she's happier with fandom, its tropes & its quirks. SGA does have scary ones (I've just discovered I was flamed months ago, wthout even knowing about it... gah.).

As for your story, I remember it, & I enjoyed it; I thought there would be some more about it (I may not have read the outline at the same time, though, or maybe I did & noticed, or not... um), & I was rubbing my hands in glee at the idea (& still would if you hadn't just said 'no way' ;-). It was different, darker although with a possibility to end on a more hopeful note (which I frankly like better in my reading, but it's a very personal preference for not moping for days after reading a sad story ;-).

I do hope you'll keep writing, posting & taking pleasure in fandom - if possible fandoms I'm in :-b!

[amalthia]

For me I don't get why not everyone is reading and commenting on Gaia's stories. the one Hawaii AU made me cry in the best possible way. I've recommended a lot of her stories and I comment. (Though for her last fic I hadn't had the chance to read it yet because I am trying to vote on the McShep challenge, I haven't even started any big bang fics yet) that and I'm more into SPN anyways but Gaia is one of the authors I do keep track of because I savor her stories.

So I really don't know what she can do to get more people to read her stories and leave feedback. As far as I'm concernerd she's doing everything the right way, good formatting, good characterizations, plot, character development, the sex is hot, and she makes you think in most of her fics. Not sure what more a person can do except find another fandom that will truly appreciate her talent.

but leaving fandom all together kind of sucks.

[kylielee1000.livejournal.com]

Gaia has left fandom before. So this isn't the first time. Maybe she'll realize she can't keep away and come back! I think people cycle in and out, depending on where they are in life, but certainly being weary and disgusted has something to do with it.

Fandom is very specific about what it wants, and it's ruthless in getting it. Like, in SGA, if you ship McShep, you're gold. If you don't, it's hard to get readership.

But a lot of it is, you get out what you put in. Fandom often finds quality as the Hive Mind begins rec'ing good stories, but a fabulous writer with no network will always get fewer notes of FB than a mediocre writer who FBs everybody herself and is cheerful and relentless and rah-rah and whom everybody knows. You can't just post fic and sit back and enjoy accolates. That hardly ever happens; the story would have to be really extraordinary.

I personally am okay with all this, but it's hard to write and get virtually no FB, because writing is so much work. I stopped writing so much when I realized that the enjoyment I got from the FB wasn't worth the time to write the story.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Fandom is very specific about what it wants, and it's ruthless in getting it.

That's actually not true. I've been in four different fandoms and it varies from fandom to fandom.

SGA writers are in a bad spot.

In the Lord of the Rings fandom, so long as you stayed away from the slash-haters, you were cool.

In Harry Potter there was lots of wank, but if someone attacked your non-con Dobby/Lucius fic, the writers would pile on to defend your right to post it whether they liked it or not. As long as you posted the pairing and basic warnings, you were cool.

SG-1 was similar to Lord of the Rings. So long as you stayed in the Jack/Daniel pool, away from the Jack/Sam shippers, you were cool.

But SGA... there's an amazing slant towards John/Rodney, yes. I wrote John/Lorne and, whoo, that was quiet. LOL. But there's isn't a set way to avoid stepping on someone's political sensibilities. Politics seems to be the issue. There's no little pool you can stick to, or warnings that you can post to avoid getting roasted. Even light AUs about concerts can end up in an unexpected firestorm because the author tripped over some political correctness.

I will agree that SGA is ruthless about getting what they want, yes. Most fandoms have a mechanism to protect the authors, to allow them some space to write what they will. Because, you know, fanfiction mirrors the world we live in so all the sexism, racism, desire, hatred, greed, ignorance -- it's going to show up.

What I'm seeing is with each PC wank, whether it's racism or sexism or date rape, SGA writers seem to be getting more cautious about what they post. There are still good stories, but there's a lot of retreading of old territory and inversion of SGA cliches.

What can I say? Bullying works. But the fandom as a whole suffers because people are less willing to take risks.

But going on to the questions about marketing and unpopular pairings -- do you think gaiaanarchy had no network? Because she is really good, for all that she's writing very off-beat stuff.

Icarus

[kylielee1000.livejournal.com]

One reason I withdrew from SGA fandom was because the rabble-rousing rah-rah hoo-hoo drove me INSANE and I did not feel comfortable or happy. Unfortunately all my friends were in it and I couldn't follow them to some new places (one slasher went to the het side! what is that about!). So I've fallen out of touch with some people I liked very much, which I deeply regret.

I knew Gaia better about two-three-ish years ago, in another fandom, and I have no idea how the move to LJ has treated her. I don't want to comment specifically about her because she's really just the pretext for this interesting discussion. I am sorry to see her go.

I would say that fandom does get what it wants, but it has different strategies in different fandoms, and some are...healthier than others. It's really a sloshy consensus as things roll back and forth. Most people find a little niche and remain in it quite happily.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

You moved out of the SGA fandom? You just wrote a fic for atlantisbasics (for me! Eee!) so I had no idea. I've read a lot of your SG-1 fics (Minnesota's a favorite).

One reason I withdrew from SGA fandom was because the rabble-rousing rah-rah hoo-hoo drove me INSANE and I did not feel comfortable or happy.

Yeah. I completely missed it in the early days. I'm so likely to be out of the loop that I was reccing the very stories that were at the center of controversies with no clue there was a problem. It wasn't until Last Port of Call that I started paying attention. Once I stopped blinking.

...fandom does get what it wants, but it has different strategies in different fandoms, and some are...healthier than others.

Oooooooh yeah.

I guess it's based on motive. When you have a "okay, children, let's find a way to get along" you tend to end up with more healthy mechanisms. When the motive is "Yee-haw, caught ya -- let's go get 'em!" then the mechanisms will be a little more, hmmm, well, not mechanisms at all. Certainly not designed for the welfare of the writers.

I haven't felt happy in the SGA fandom for over a year, but I'm a stubborn cuss and I've got stories to finish. :)

Icarus

[kylielee1000.livejournal.com]

Yes, I was in SGA at the very beginning and then dropped out soon after another set of people moved in who were incredibly divisive of the fandom, and then everything exploded. It's one reason I wrote a Season 1 fic for you: because I was happy then... *g* Ah, those were the days...

I really only ever write challenge fics these days, to get me going. I poked over in your journal because of the fic I wrote for you; it seemed only appropriate!

I don't ship McShep. I think they are just friends in canon and I have a hard time writing what I don't see. I want Ronon/Sheppard. Oh yes I do.

I have been feeling more fannish now that some people I found oppressive, and who of course will remain nameless, have stopped posting and being around so much. I've actually spent all day finding my favorite people on Wraithbait and catching up with their work—these same old friends I don't see much of anymore.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I never say never. And my mood's going to bounce around anyway, depending on events, the weather, the time of the month, RL....

I poked over in your journal because of the fic I wrote for you; it seemed only appropriate!

Of course you did. And of course I immediately scrambled over to your LJ to review the story I read yesterday. (Sorry, I'd binged on fic all weekend so I was feeling the fic version of 9pm after Thanksgiving dinner.)

I'm seeing a lot of nostalgia-type SGA fics right now. Part of it may be because people know radical changes are happening in canon, so they don't want to move forward without any idea where it's headed -- so therefore they're looking back. Part of it is, I believe, some intense wanks that have people hiding under the furniture. Part of it is people are preparing for the show to die, so they're looking back in a kind of memorial. People are very worried about the changes in season four. You're the first I've heard who's reaching for first year because it was a happier time in fandom, though maybe others feel the same.

I like McShep friendship fics as much as I like slash. Some of my slash stories turn into friendship fics. And I have this growing interest in Lorne....

Icarus

[kylielee1000.livejournal.com]

(This thread is like a really looong IM chat... *g*)

I think part of the hesitance to NOT move ahead for the next season is because the new season is coming up very soon, and nobody wants to be stuck with fic, particularly series, where you went off in some direction that the show totally won't support. In short...everybody is going to get Jossed, big time.

This doesn't even take into consideration the 75% of your flist who won't read any fic based on spoilers because...they are spoilers, and they don't want to be spoiled. (Me, I love spoilers. Bring 'em on!)

I don't think the show will go away; it will just change. And I have no problem with that either. TPTB can do what they want; and they seem fine letting us do what we want, which is a relief.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

(This thread is like a really looong IM chat... *g*)

Really. Real time! (Till now.)

In short...everybody is going to get Jossed, big time.

That's a big part of it. Another friend pointed out that we went into a fic slow down while two major challenges were being prepared: sga_bigbang and mcshep_match.

I don't think the show will go away; it will just change. And I have no problem with that either. TPTB can do what they want; and they seem fine letting us do what we want, which is a relief.

It's true. The Stargate people have never had an issue with the fans and fanworks.

Apparently the Sci-Fi channel is under pressure from their owners to buy fewer outside shows (like MGM's Stargate) and run more of their own. Stargate's future will depend as much on the ratings of Sci-Fi's own shows as it does on Stargate's ratings. I hope the show will make it seven seasons, even if the last seasons are a little weak.

About Bailing Out Authors Who're Getting Attacked - Positive Steps

Further up thread... thinking about the systems in place for helping authors who are being clobbered over PC-ness... it doesn't really work to dive into the mess on their behalf. Fanfiction is supposed to be -- at least for me -- fun.

Plus, the reason for the attacks is to give the attacker a platform for their opinion. The longer it goes on the longer they can pump out their message.

I hope that you'r right, that it's just individuals who do this and they're losing interest.

I think what I'm going to do is whenever a story is getting trashed (again) because of someone's personal politics, I'm going to recommend the story. Sign up for stargateficrec and recommend it there. Link the author to the rec so they can see it. And encourage other people to do so.

It would be a gentle protest to counteract what's going on without giving the political protester any more of a platform.

Icarus

[gaiaanarchy.livejournal.com]

Real sign that it's time to leave fandom: when people wank about you leaving fandom and you kinda don't care. Oh, the freedom!

I left you a long comment on Last Port of Call, probably after all of fandom had already read and wanked. I really loved the fic just the way it was, because I think that cannon John is often an asshole to Rodney, and along with the 'one of us suddenly has breasts' stories, it's one of the most cannonically believable John/Rodney sex scenarios.

After reading your original outline and last port of call, however, I have trouble imagining them sort of coming together. Maybe it's because any relationship described overview-style is probably a lot more pleasant than on the ground (kinda like Bush admistration jargon, vs. Iraq), but even with Rodney being kinda okay with the whole thing, I'm not quite sure you could get me there from 'Last Port of Call' without me seeing more of what's going on in John's head (and it's probably gonna have to be an epiphany). I can see how he might feel a little bad and then maybe sleep with Rodney again, but I'm a little stuck in the transistion from 'I'll fuck anyone, but I like Rodney right now' to only wanting to fuck Rodney. But then again, maybe I expect a greater degree of angsty realism from you than I do from the authors who write the typical 'and then they did sex and lived happily ever after' crowd.

I think that if I were writing a sequel to LPoC I would do it with Rodney taking a leaf out of John's book and using John's moves on several girls or guys, and then John getting jealous and them having it out and getting together.

Also, I don't see anything wrong with John's actions in LPoC (assuming that he didn't quite get that Rodney was a virgin). If I thought I was gonna die in 10 days, that's what I'd do. I guess I get annoyed with women who get pissed at the idea that a 'good guy' would manipulate and play the field in order to get laid, when we manipulate guys all the time with the promise of getting laid and then often proceed to not lay them. You're right, gender-studies thesis . . . I won't say more.

But in the end I have to applaud you for putting something out there that really made a lot of people think (and some kinda make asses of themselves), even though you probably knew it was going to earn some disgruntled reviews. It was honest, and I think the main reason why I friended you in the first place.

Also, I like the subterfuge of posting the same premise through bird's eye rosy glasses and making everyone eat their hypocrisy. It's like how everyone always conveniently forgets that Aliens Made them Do It is actually rape, because if it has a happy ending, it's suddenly consensual, or me posting a story anonymously and getting about 5x the number of reviews as normal, or taking a close up picture of your skin and having it look like a dessert. Context is everything, and you proved it!

And for the record, I didn't fully understand the sequel from Rodney's POV. I was like . . . huh? It just made me think that Rodney is stupid, instead of making me feel reassured, because, even though I'm not a feminist by any means, I'd like to think that Rodney's not the kind of guy that will say, 'huh, if I pretend that it's all going to have a happy ending, then it didn't happen.' But at the same time, if I were in your shoes, I totally would have done the exact same thing. I think I'd rather have people accept the original story and some part of the idea thanks to a platitude of a sequel then have the out and out reject the idea and hate the writer because it offends them so entirely that they're not even willing to think about it.

In conclusion, I think you're brilliant. Thanks for posting this. I got a total kick out of it. And seriously, you have balls of fire for holding onto this for so long (because if you had let people know this back in the middle of the wank, it would have been a wank-plosion!) I don't think I could have resisted.

P.S. It strikes me as though some of this might have come out a little bitchy. Just make all the sarcasm in a John-Sheppard voice, and you'll get what I mean.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Real sign that it's time to leave fandom: when people wank about you leaving fandom and you kinda don't care.

Is anyone wanking about you leaving the fandom? I hope I'm not.

After reading your original outline and last port of call, however, I have trouble imagining them sort of coming together.

It would be difficult, but it can be pulled off, sure.

The next part (instead of the Rodney POV I posted) was supposed to be John going through the Mess line with Rodney behind him.

It's a couple days later and John's disturbed that he hasn't been able to implement "Phase II" of his plan. He checks out a woman scientist who looks like she'd be pretty hot without the giant glasses she wore, but he feels a little... uncomfortable... putting a move on her with Rodney right there. It just doesn't feel right. But Rodney had been around a lot these last couple days.

Rodney follows John's gaze and mocks her glasses, comparing them to the car windscreen. John goes along with making fun of her while staring after her wistfully.

They end up bantering outside John's door. John regrets those lost two days (out of ten). So he invites Rodney in. Why not? Rodney looks stunned and scared, and John quickly sweetens the deal by offering to give Rodney a chance on top (it was only fair). The sex turns out to be spectacularly bad. (I think John was turned on by the role of "expert" before.)

Following that: John's abortive pass at Teyla set during "Letters From Pegasus." They're in the jumper together and John's looking for his opportunity... and then Teyla wants to rescue her friends. John, knowing this will shoot any chance with her, puts Atlantis first and says he can't do that. The view of her people is that since you can't save everyone, you save those who are close to you. John's more than just leaving people to die: he's made a blunt statement that her people are not his people. To Teyla, John is the alien.

In frustration, John goes straight to Rodney in the labs -- and Rodney turns him down. 'Not here, not now, I'm busy getting a message to Earth, thank you.' John returns to his room and starts thinking that this was all a very bad idea.

Hours later, John's wakened out of a dead sleep. Rodney's just finished his work and it's now a more convenient time for him if.... John hauls him in by the lapels.

Also, I don't see anything wrong with John's actions in LPoC (assuming that he didn't quite get that Rodney was a virgin). If I thought I was gonna die in 10 days, that's what I'd do.

I did a little informal and disorganized poll. I discovered that the groups who had no problem with John's behavior tended to be:

- Men
- Ex-military
- Older women (late 30s, early 40s) although there were quite a few women in the late 20s to mid-30s as well

The groups who took issue with John's playing the field tended to be:

- Young women in their late teens and early 20s
- Women who had experienced date rape or were date rape counselors
- Rodney devotees who revolt when John is mean to Rodney in canon

It's an interesting pattern. It would have worried me if it were the reverse, and the ex-military were the ones who thought I got it wrong. ;)

...even though you probably knew it was going to earn some disgruntled reviews.

Three of my betas warned me but I was still surprised. Even if I'd known I still would have posted it.

Also, I like the subterfuge of posting the same premise through bird's eye rosy glasses and making everyone eat their hypocrisy.

That wasn't deliberate, it just worked out that way. *g*

And seriously, you have balls of fire for holding onto this for so long

The only reason I held onto it was because I didn't want to spoil the reveal. The stories come first.

Icarus

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

This has all been so fascinating I don't know if I can get it all of my thoughts and reactions in one comment. I hope you don't mind me rambling on, because I've spent the larger part of the day thinking about this, and I'm really coming up with a lot of interesting ideas on how I, as a woman, view sex and relationships -- in particular, pointing out blind spots that I'd never been aware of, but which I really SHOULD be as a writer!

I had never read "Last Port of Call" (I cycle in and out of interest in slash, and especially, back in my earlier days in this fandom, I wasn't reading much at all -- which means there are a lot of older stories I've missed) so I've only read it just now, and of course, therefore, I get the benefit of 20/20 hindsight -- having read your post above, I went into it knowing that there had been a fuss about it, and curious to see what the fuss was about.

Basically, I thought it was a really brilliant story, and the sort of story I've been craving lately (which is also why I wanted to check out gaiaanarchy's, since I recalled that she writes that sort of thing) -- stories that deal with the darker, more broken elements of the SGA-verse. There are a lot of things in conventional (i.e. fluffy and romantic) SGA fic that have deeply creepy and dark repurcussions, as canon does also; one of the things I've been wanting lately is to see stories that really deal with those issues in a serious and consistent-with-reality kind of way, rather than, say, sweeping the non-con issues of "[x] made them do it" stories under the rug.

So, yes, this story -- my first reaction is "WTF? That wasn't date rape!" I really did love it, even though it left me feeling unsettled rather than happy at the end; it was a really fantastic exploration of the ways that people respond to pressure -- painful and aching and sad, but also very real, very consistent with the ways that John's intense personality might react under pressure.

But ... now here's where the interesting analysis crops up, because then I went and read the other story, the one that gives them a happy ending -- and that was when I got the "OMG, I'm feeling very skeeved now" sort of feeling. The original story works great for me as something dark and kind of broken, something that would probably break the friendship and leave them much more distant towards each other, and maybe have other negative fallout for both of them down the road. It works for me as something dysfunctional, and leaves me with a good feeling about it as a story; but it doesn't work, for me, as the prelude to a happy relationship, and in that context it makes me feel unsettled in the way that I feel skeeved by stories in which a character falls in love with their rapist (even though I don't see what John did in the story as rape ... manipulative, but not forcibly coercive).

So all day long, I've been analyzing why that might be, and really coming up with interesting conclusions regarding the way that I react to sex, as it's presented in fiction -- knee-jerk, gut-level things that I don't think I was even really aware of.

The thing is, the way that I saw John's behavior in "Last Port of Call" wasn't really OOC, and it wasn't rape, but it was very manipulative and very inconsiderate. It was John wanting something specific, something that he could get from anybody, but targeting Rodney (when his first choice didn't go for it) and then using the insider knowledge of Rodney that he'd gained as his friend to manipulate him into having sex. After getting to know Rodney so well, John already knew the buttons to push, and rather than trying to find someone who *wanted* sex, he pushed them in order to goad Rodney into doing something that he didn't want to do -- something that would shake Rodney's self-image to the core, and maybe, ultimate, break him or drive him out of Atlantis, if they survived the Wraith. But the (very likely) negative effects on Rodney weren't important to John; I get a really strong vibe from John of "I don't care what happens to you or our friendship, I want this thing from you and I'll get it from you by convincing you that you want to give it to me".

Okay, so, not gonna fit on one comment apparently ...

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

So John's behavior towards Rodney was, honestly, quite reprehensible to me, and something which is likely to kill a friendship, but with only ten days to live, I could totally see John (and a lot of people in Atlantis, actually) developing a sort of apocalypse mentality where consequence, to themselves and others, didn't matter much anymore. So, for me, this story was kind of apocalyptic and sad. It was a John who'd, understandably, decided that he'd had about enough of giving things without getting things in return, and was out to get one last damn thing before he died; it was the story of an Atlantis on which people were preparing to go down in flames, and were being forced into all the terrible and beautiful things that are done by people about to die. It sucker-punched me in the gut and made me think about the way that good, but flawed, people break under strain, and break others in the attempt to heal their own cracks.

But reading the other story, where this was the prelude to an ongoing relationship, actually made my stomach turn. And while "10 Days..." didn't really end on a perfectly happy note, my thought after reading it was that it probably WAS going to end happily, eventually, or at least was on track to that, and given how John had blatantly manipulated Rodney into bed and then talked him out of all of his objections once he'd gotten him there, this hit me like about 10 different kinds of WRONG.

And then I started asking myself "... why?" Because why *does* "Last Port" work for me as a tragedy, but not as the opening act in a romance? Why does John's occasional callousness and manipulativeness towards Rodney work so well (for me) in a platonic relationship, but trips off my dysfunction-o-meter when he's doing the same thing to him in bed?

I really dislike most romantic movies, of the Romancing the Stone/African Queen type, in an irrational way I can't quite explain, but when you take the exact same sort of bickery, mutually-verbally-abusive relationship and transplant it into a platonic friendship, I'm all over it. And I've never really sat down and analyzed that; I always just took it as gospel that I am willing to accept different things from (fictional) romances than from friendships, while not really asking myself what those differences ARE, and why they seem so fundamental to me.

Unfortunately I can't come up with anything more profound than "... because at heart I am a big quivering puddle of GIRL, and I don't want my guy to manipulate me and put me down, and I don't want to see lovers do that to each other either -- at least not as part of a positive, healthy relationship." And I had never really *seen* it that way before -- that, while I'd never really noticed myself doing so, maybe I AM projecting myself into what I read on a really fundamental level; and once the characters make the jump from "friends" to "lovers" suddenly I'm having trouble sorting out what is right and appropriate for John and Rodney from what I prefer for me. I can handle it just fine as long as, in the context of the story or at least in terms of the way the story ends, it's clearly *bad*. And by this, I don't mean I want the author to come out and give the characters the Great Karmic Smackdown for being bad people; I just mean that I want to feel as if the actions that the characters took in the story had, or will have, the same sort of emotional repurcussions that they would in real life, including negative fallout (emotional or otherwise) for physical/emotional abuse. It skeeves me to no end when that doesn't happen. I always say that I have squicks regarding non-con and torture and that sort of thing, but actually, I think the squick is not for those things by themselves -- it's for those things being presented in the context of the story as good things: as something that the "victim" character has to be forcibly "taught" to like, or as a prelude to a happy romance.

... sigh, carrying on to YET ANOTHER comment; sorry!

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

While I do have to be in the right mood for it, I think I can take quite a lot of darkness in my fic as long as the other characters' reactions read, to me, as appropriate for that. So, I can take John coercing Rodney into bed as a dysfunctional and unhappy act, but not John doing it as the first step to Rodney realizing that he really *needed* a little bit of dubiously-consensual lovin' in order to loosen him up and find true love with John. (I realize that I'm grossly oversimplifying and possibly misrepresenting the plot of "10 Days..." here, but the foregoing is the level on which I reacted to it.)

But reading through the DVD commentary and the original discussion for "Last Port" made me consider that I'm really viewing the original story through a distorted lens, because I'm a girl, and John and Rodney are guys, and what seems to ME like a heinous act -- that of manipulating another person into bed -- probably isn't for them. I mean, that's an oversimplification again; as your story discussion pointed out, part of the fundamental tension in the story is that Rodney can't quite get his mind around sex-without-love (not to overgeneralize, but something that's a characteristically female trait), while that's *exactly* how John sees it in this particular case. I still have trouble seeing Rodney NOT being deeply hurt by that, but I can't really tell how much of that is just my, well, girlyness projecting me into the story and then reading *myself* as the "traumatized" character. Rodney, on the other hand, is Rodney -- he's abrasive, emotionally blunt, and somewhat manipulative himself, and while my initial reading of the story is "what a horrible thing to do; that's probably going to break the friendship", I've started thinking that maybe I was just suffering from a massive case of over-identifying with the charaacters. I'm still having a really hard time wrapping my brain around the idea of Rodney being able to get past it enough to have a deep and meaningful relationship with John afterwards, but again, I can't figure out how much of that is just a failure of imagination on MY part.

Anyway, I'm still thinking about it and analyzing it, but if this is accurate, it means I've been approaching writing about male gay relationships from a really flawed perspective that I wasn't even aware of -- that is, I'd anticipated some of the grosser differences such as the elimination of the cultural power imbalance between the two parties, but I'd never even THOUGHT that the whole heterosexual relationship dynamic would be totally thrown off because both people in the relationship would be GUYS. I know that sounds horribly obvious, and maybe it is to everyone but me, but there are all of these unconscious expectations for relationships that I'm carrying around with me as a female, like "sex equals affection" and "manipulating other people for sex is wrong" -- and now I'm trying to imagine a relationship in which that female perspective is totally absent, and wow, my brain is just doing FREAKY canniptions trying to visualize it!

So, I'm sorry for inflicting this appallingly long comment on you, but I'm really incredibly glad that you wrote the story, and then called attention to it here (because otherwise I'd have missed it), and now I'm thinking in ways I never thought before, and that's just awesome!

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

It goes both ways. Men don't get women's take on sex either. Right at this moment I'm watching this incredibly annoying depiction of a lesbian couple having trouble -- written by a man. The one lesbian woman (man projecting himself onto a woman) is frustrated at the lack of sex in her relationship, then hits it off with a woman at a baby shower who comes on to her sexually, teasing (man projecting how gay relationships start). Then the sexually frustrated lesbian woman goes to visit the flirt, they talk (at least he got this much right), and then they run off and have sex together immediately afterward (man projecting his own way of dealing with relationship problems). Then lesbian woman comes home to her lover and is uncommunicative and distant (man projecting how he acts after an affair).

Augh. So totally wrong.

First off, if it's two women, the sex might be an issue but the women never complain about the sex -- they complain about the reasons behind the lack of sex and psychoanalyze each other. To death. Then, yes, she meets someone at a baby shower -- but it's someone safe. A flirt will be avoided because that would seem predatory when she's feeling vulnerable in her relationship. But, no, she'll have a new best friend.

No, they would not fuck after the first talk. Instead they'll talk for months, and her new best friend would be the one she goes to every time she has a relationship problem -- and they'd joyously shred her girlfriend together. Eventually their friendship will be so tight that the girlfriend is practically moved out onto the porch, figuratively speaking. The girlfriend will rail against this, but that will only give the other two more to talk about. (There will fights, reconciliations, attempts to break off the friendship because it "bothers" the girlfriend, etc.)

At last they figure out they're in a deep meaningful relationship. Then, and only then, is there sex.

But the man who wrote this doesn't get women at all. He thinks -- much like a lot of slash writers -- that men and women have similar attitudes about sex.

Sex, for men, is much more casual than it is for women. For Rodney, the issue wasn't that he was pressure into sex. His attitude if you said that to him would be, "Huh? What?" His problem is that it's gay sex. And that it's Sheppard is another issue.

Icarus

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

*winces* Oh dear, that sounds terrible ... and, yet, it's no more "off" than the way a lot of women write men. Slash writers especially. It's interesting, but even though I'm quite familiar with the male species (being married to one of them, and all) I'd never really gotten, from the inside out, how drastically the courtship dynamic would change if both people are guys rather than just one of them being so.

On the other hand, there's certainly variation within the gender as well -- I've known plenty of women who've had one-night stands, casual-sex-only relationships, or cheated on a spouse. But there seems to be a lot of guilt and weirdness that goes along with that for women, which isn't so much of a problem with guys ...

I think that reading quite a bit of slash has made me less, well, inclined to notice the way that men in slash relate to each other very much as idealized women. I remember that when I first started reading slash, about 90% of it was way too saccharine for me. Lately that hasn't been nearly as true, but since the little spate of blathering that I subjected you to above, I've swung back that way again; I'm noticing the feminization again, where I'd started ignoring it because it's so prevalent that it had stopped even registering on my radar.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

The way I learned the male attitudes towards love and sex was from this book:

My First Time (http://www.amazon.com/My-First-Time-Describe-Experience/dp/1555837697), edited by Jack Hart.

These are first hand accounts by various gay men of various ages about their first sexual experience. It's very hot, but mostly it steeps you in guys' attitudes towards sex and relationships. Some of these first times were romantic, some of them were traumatic, some of them were "peanut buttery," some were omes with their wives and a guy -- there's a huge variety.

I struggle to explain the differences between the way guys' approach sex and women do. I think that women slash writers need to read it to discover what they're projecting onto their male characters, because for every slash writer it'll be something different. Their own personal attitudes will vary. We need to see for ourselves what surprises us.

What surprised me was that the vast majority of these first time experiences were casual. The guys went straight from sexual interest to sex. The other thing was how fast it was, even between teenage boys. The other thing that surprised me was that the guys never expected a relationship, either before or after the sex. Not that there weren't relationships, there just was no expectation. The other thing that surprised me was that when it was with a friend, it was often a one-time thing and they were both relaxed about it afterward and the friendship continued even if one didn't want to do it again. If one or another of them freaked out it was always about rejecting being gay rather than feeling rejected that there was no committment.

I'm not sure of the reasons for this. I have vague theories about our culture and attitudes women imbibe, the risk women take both of societal censure and pregnancy, and then the psychological vulnerability of having someone inside you (very few men's first times were anal), the feminine narrative of sex being a "pinnacle" experience, while the male narrative is one of virility. I also think the fact that society tends to, um, not encourage relationships between men (to put it mildly) it's not an option on the menu. For gay men, the relationship is the risk, while for women the sex is the risk. Plus men can have the relationships they want -- with women. What's missing is the sex with men.

Icarus

[monkeypumpkin.livejournal.com]

I am feeling very stupid. I actually woke up this morning wondering if you'd ever posted the rest of "Last Port of Call". And I had READ About ten days.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

You shouldn't feel stupid: I never did post the rest of "Last Port Of Call."

"About 10 Days..." was just the outline and I deliberately covered my tracks that it was the same story. I was writing "Last Port Of Call" for the sga_flashfic virgin challenge and ran out of time to finish what was turning into a really long story.