icarusancalion

I hope so, too. I've reached that climbing-the-walls phase of being sick.

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Er, vaccines don't work that way. You don't become a flu virus carrier after getting the shot. Also, typically they don't select the "worst" flu viruses either - they base the vaccine on the strain of the flu they think is most likely to get passed around in a given year.

That is the real problem with the flu vaccine - if they guess wrong, the shot isn't as effective.

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To continue, the flu vaccine is a 'dead' (deactivated) vaccine. There is no 'live' virus around to multiply and spread to other people.

Also, polio and measles are both caused by viruses. They just don't mutate as fast as the virus that causes the flu.

And a better stated version of the problem with the flu vaccine itself - it's rare for the WHO to "guess" wrong, the bigger problem is that the vaccine can't be stockpiled. What works one year probably won't work the next.

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To continue, the flu vaccine is a 'dead' (deactivated) vaccine. There is no 'live' virus around to multiply and spread to other people.

Supposedly dead. However, there are only a couple of companies that make the flu vaccine in the U.S. and they can't keep up with the demand. They have a problem with quality control: note the shortage -- I think it was last year -- of the flu vaccine due to an entire production of eggs being destroyed. That's not just a little boo-boo. It only takes a tiny percentage of live viruses to get through such lax protocols to trigger a flu outbreak, although there's a good chance that those exposed will be able to fight it off. In my experience, when you have time constraints coupled with too much demand, quality control deteriorates. Every. Single. Time.

The flu vaccine was not meant for mass production use. It was supposed to protect the elderly, the very young, people with cancer, and those with auto-immune deficiency. Corporations just want to reduce sick time so are pushing it at a rate production was never intended to meet.

Meanwhile, ask any biomedical firm and they'll tell you that they guard the rights to their vaccines ferociously, milking as much profit out of them as they can. We will not see more than those couple companies making the vaccine. Because for every "hit" in the biomedical industry there are a thousand and failures, and the profits from that hit get sunk right back in R&D.

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I agree that the flu vaccine should be a targeted vaccine, not one that everyone gets every year. I personally have never had a flu shot (1/3 20-something, 1/3 miser, 1/3 perfectly healthy). I agree that any sort of system/corporation that profits from healthcare has quite a few bugs.

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Those who have the shot become carriers because viruses aren't the same as polio, measles, etc.

Completely untrue. As I stated above, measles and polio ARE viruses, but nobody seems to care that they are combated with 'dead' AND 'live' virus vaccines as well. People who have had the flu vaccine DO NOT become carriers of the flu. I cannot stress this enough. You are stating a medical fallacy.

Supposedly dead.

It would matter less than you might think. The MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) shot is a live virus vaccine, as is the chicken pox vaccine, and the one they used for smallpox(though it didn't actually contain smallpox). The polio vaccine was a live virus vaccine. The fact is, the amount of virus that is given in a live virus vaccine is so miniscule that the chances of passing the virus on are beyond remote. The amount of live virus that might make it into a dose intended to be a dead virus vaccine? Unimaginably small.

Vaccines have their problems, in their composition and how they are produced and distributed. But they do not turn people in disease carriers.

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Moot point, apparently. Based on the symptoms, this is not the flu the flu vaccine was designed to cover. I neither got it from the flu vaccine nor would any vaccination have helped.

No vaccine should be treated as a panacea and, while I'm not against vaccines in general, the "offer" to "give" us (push-push-push) the flu shot from the corporation has rubbed me the wrong way.

I'm with you on the fact that the flu vaccine should be targeted to high-risk populations, but I differ in that there are reasons that the flu vaccine is not given in live form.

But they do not turn people in disease carriers.

I note your italics and online "shouting" and will now follow through on my threat: *coughs all over you*

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*hides behind the shield of the internets*

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"I'm with you on the fact that the flu vaccine should be targeted to high-risk populations"

I just wish 'people who get the damn flu every year unless they're immunised' counted as a high-risk population. It's free in New Zealand if you're high-risk, but not if you're just a nice low-risk person like me who happens to get the disease every year there is no immunisation jab.

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The fact is, the amount of virus that is given in a live virus vaccine is so miniscule that the chances of passing the virus on are beyond remote.

Not always true. The literature given to parents who are having their kids immunised for some things (I think mumps is one of them) seems to say that adults who are unimmunised and have never had the disease might be at risk from close contact with their recently immunised kid for a day or so.

We'll be being very careful of my husband for a few days when my daughter gets her MMR. He may go away on a trip for the weekend.

Your main point, that being immunised doesn't make you into a carrier of the disease, is largely correct, of course.

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The Bad Astronomer just had a good post on the theory behind getting flu shots and other vacinations: http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2008/01/04/woo-shot/. It sort of talks about what you mention.

I was hoping that aetiology's blog had something, but nope, she's talking about trans-species viruses right now.

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I love how this asshole refers to us as a "herd."

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I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on Phil's personality.

I didn't mean to rile you up with the link. I just thought you might find it interesting.

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Too sick, too tired, too grumpy to have much patience, I'm afraid. Normally I would find it interesting but not right now. It feels like salt in the wound.

I don't if I should be cheered by this (but I am):

klymer1's whole family got this particular flu. Her mom got the nausea (day two on the list of flu treats) bad enough they took her to the hospital. She'd had the flu shot.

Turns out this flu's not covered.

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So I scanned through it. Interesting? He has no information on the flu shots whatsoever.

It's just one long straw man argument painting his opponents as "the anti-vaccination crowd" who "use the same faulty evidence, bad thinking, and misleading methods that the Moon Hoax purveyors, the Mars Facers, the UFO proponents, and cosmic doomcriers use." Nice of him to throw his imaginary "crazy" opponents -- because only crazy people would disagree with glorious him? -- a bone by saying that there "very well be honest people who are just seriously misguided" -- implying that, what? The rest don't have legitimate concerns and are, what? Dishonest?

Oh, and I love the anti-individual rights argument he snuck in there, that "we all suffer" if "enough people don’t get vaccinated, a disease can still run rampant" --

-- totally untrue, by the way. The flu shot doesn't eliminate the flu. According to a nurse, the current flu I have isn't covered by the flu shot.

As someone who proports to engage in critical thinking and at least uses the terms related to logical fallacies, he must be fully (and hypocritcally) aware of the type of illogical argument he's making. I find him insulting to boot. But then again, that's the aim of a straw man argument. It's to paint your opponent in such a negative light that you don't have to argue facts. You can just use slander.

Compare his poor critical thinking (I'm offended that he bandies the term about while cranking out this long logical fallacy) to the well-reasoned factual information provided by

winterthunder just in comments to this thread, and yeah, I'm totally unimpressed with him.

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Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree about him. I find his site informative and fascinating.

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And I apologize for sending you the link. I had thought you would find it interesting and perhaps that it would ease your mind about the shots. I realize I was wrong, but did not intend to offend you.

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winterthunder.livejournal.com

I would argue that by immunizing a portion of the population each year, we allow for viruses to evolve that are more virulent than would typically be seen on a regular basis. Add that to the fact that the general health of the US population is going down, making people more susceptible to the flu and other illnesses than they ought be, and you have people getting sick more often than normal. If you want to expand the theory you can toss in international travel allowing for quick movement of viruses, inadequate production standards which can lead to the vaccines spreading the very disease they're intended to prevent and the historic influenza cycle which indicates we're due for another pandemic. Scary stuff which I try not to think about too often.

Hope you're feeling better soon, though, theories aside. I don't think I've ever had the flu- I tend to catch strep throat instead. :P

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gyutto.livejournal.com

I so, so, agree. I don't care how many times my friends explain to me that vaccines don't work that way! All I know is that when I get a flu shot, I get sick, and every year I don't get one, I remain healthy while watching the masses fall victim to sniffles, coughs, and body ache. Fight the power! I'm going with my gut.

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izzybeth.livejournal.com

ditto with me. never had a flu shot. then again, never had the flu. bad colds, yes. flu? nope. (and they're provided for free through my work as well.)

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http://virus.stanford.edu/uda/

Then how did this one happen?

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winterthunder.livejournal.com

That particular strain was recently sequenced, if I remember correctly, and they found that it had mutated from an avian source and passed through swine before emerging as something that humans had never been exposed to in any way, shape or form, meaning that no one had any type of immunity to it. The viruses we typically see on a yearly basis are usually variants of prior years- descendants of the 1918 Spanish Influenza pandemic are out there, but they've lost the ability to attack the way they used to, both because the population has already been exposed and because the virus itself has mutated into a less lethal form.

If you're interested, The Great Influenza (http://www.amazon.com/Great-Influenza-Deadliest-Plague-History/dp/0670894737) by John Barry is very readable and a great source of information about the 1918 pandemic and the general dynamics of the influenza virus.

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tekalynn.livejournal.com

I think they also found that it messed up the immune system, so young adults, normally the first to recover from illnesses, were the worst affected.

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I know. This is the way that I know flu strains change and adapt.

I think if I understood better what was in a flu vaccine then maybe I would be able to figure out if the idea that the vaccine is making things worse is a valid one or not.

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The vaccine has a (supposedly) inert virus that triggers your body to produce antibodies because your body doesn't know it isn't live. Those antibodies then protect you when you encounter the live version because -- as far your body is concerned -- you've already had it. It was assumed that no one could create "a" flu vaccine because the flu mutates so rapidly and comes in 31(+) flavors. There are new strains every year. The flu vaccine is a compilation of several of the most likely (and nastiest) candidates for the coming flu season each year. (Someone above said that it's just one flu virus, which is incorrect.)

When you first get the flu vaccine, since your body thinks it has the flu, you will get flu-like symptoms.

I have no confidence in the flu vaccine. We have only a couple companies producing massive quantities of the vaccine under tight time constraints. The likelihood that some of those flu shots are either ineffective, contain live viruses, or other quality control problems, is very high at present.

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Now that I can see possibly happening.

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akaspeedo.livejournal.com

I agree with you 100%. But I'm not in favor of vaccines in general, and don't even get me started on the one supposedly to keep young women from getting some kinds of cervical cancer.

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winterthunder.livejournal.com

Originally, vaccines contained small amounts of the thing it was supposed to protect against. There's evidence that civilizations hundreds of years ago in India would immunize their children by rubbing the oozings from various pox victims into small cuts on the skin.

The problem that I (and many other people) have with today's vaccines is that they contain not only killed or modified live viruses, but a cocktail of other chemicals and preservatives necessary for mass production. The companies that create vaccines each have their own version of the cocktail and each of them claim that it's proprietary information, so they won't release the contents. It does at least have to be approved by the FDA, but given the number of drug recalls and stories of company funded studies that suppress information that would hurt sales, I don't find myself overly inclined to trust my health to the FDA.

There's also some research to indicate that gaging immunity based on the circulation of antibodies is inaccurate and that by constantly exposing ourselves to viruses in unnatural ways (since most illnesses aren't spread by injection into the muscle) we're setting ourselves up for longer term chronic immune issues. All this leads me to believe that we don't understand our immune systems well enough to be fooling with them. Call me crazy, but I'll eat well and exercise and trust my immune system to do the job that it's been evolving over millions of years to do.

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*sigh*

I just don't know. It's all one gigantic mess.

I seem to remember that cats have had bad reactions from being "over vaccinated"

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Thank you. I just learned a great deal from you, and your comments here gave me more information than I've ever encountered on the subject.

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This one's completely unsurprising if you know anything about trench warfare, the dead bodies left to rot on the fences, the rats, gangrenous injuries, etc.

J.R.R. Tolkien's descriptions of Mordor are likely drawn from his own experiences in the trenches of the battle of the Somme.

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wenelda.livejournal.com

i've never had a flu shot in my entire life, and i've never had the flu, either. i had mono once, but got over it after a few months.

but then, my mum gets a flu shot every year and she's never had the flu either. i think it's just genetic make-up and a roll of the dice, to be honest.

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Or international travel has become even more popular and planes even more crowded.

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Good point.

Though I didn't catch this on a plane. I think... germy children.

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