Weir. You can always count on him....

[icarus]

... to bluntly say what no one else will admit.

"Figure skating used to have a public persona comparable to the high school homecoming queen or prom queen," the always-controversial Weir noted before the [US Nationals]. "Now our image to the public is the homecoming queen after she got knocked up on prom night and is living on the wrong side of the tracks."

Weir of course, is referring to the 2002 Olympic judging scandal which tarnished the reputation of figure skating worldwide but had the biggest impact in the U.S., where the games were hosted and saw the biggest TV audience.

Personally, I think the the new scoring system is the problem, not the politics. The politics behind the scenes had always been the fun part of figure skating for the audience. We used to know which judge gave which score and have always gone, "Ooo! Look at the low score the Russian judge gave the American skater." Plus the scores were easy to understand. Even in grammar school I knew that 6.0 was better than a 5.7, and grasped the concept that 6.0 was like a perfect "A."

Now we get a score: "244.77."

Huh? What does that number mean to the fans who don't follow skating religiously? I told WG, "Anything over 200 is pro-level." But that applies to the final combined short program and freeskate score, not the short program alone.

Weir and Lysacek's tie this weekend at 244.77 is much more exciting when you know that this is the highest skating score ever. That's how hard they fought each other.

Tickets to the 2010 Olympics in Vancouver, Canada, go on sale this October. Figure skating tickets are as low as $50 for the nosebleed seats. Trust Canada to keep their promise to have affordable tickets so regular people can attend. Figure skating is a great show. Unlike skiing, where you can expect to stand there for an hour only to have a blur rush by ("which guy was that?" -- "I think he was ours"), skating delivers three hours of non-stop entertainment. Even between programs there are always skaters warming up on the ice doing cool jumps (or impressive falls).

Anyhow, I have two shaky and poor quality vids of the US Nationals that have been uploaded to Imeem, I'm just waiting for the confirmation email.

Overwhelmed at school this week. I started my tutoring job and so -- eep. Haywire.

Comments

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

I do agree that the scoring system is problematic. I don't follow figure skating regularly; I'm one of those who likes it, but only goes out of my way to watch it at the Olympics. In '06, the numbers were impossible to make sense of, like you said, but that wasn't really the biggest problem I had. My problem was that the way they looked at each element by itself, it didn't really matter whether you could actually *do* your program, just so long as the program was really, really hard. I don't remember specific examples (though I know it strongly affected Weir, who's my favorite skater), but it seemed like a skater could fall on one jump, two-foot another, stumble on a third, travel on two of the spins and be in lousy positioning for the other, have a footwork section that *I* could do (I hold on to the rail when I skate), and still medal -- because their program had two quads, and they made it around four times in the air, so they got full credit, even if they landed on their ass. They'd lose one point, out of over 200. In other words, it barely mattered.

Spectators can't watch that -- frankly, most quad jumps look no different from most triple jumps (to the untrained eye, anyway), and we don't know whether a flip or a lutz is harder, or how many points you get for a camel spin versus a layback -- but we know you're supposed to stay *upright*. It doesn't take much watching to figure out what the spins are generally supposed to look like, and how to see that someone has stumbled, or missed something. For people to watch and respect figure skating as a sport, the scores need to actually reflect what people see as the quality of what they're seeing.

They should use the same scoring system as gymnastics. Everyone understands scores out of 10, and it's actually standardized and makes sense. You fall once, that's a 0.5-point deduction, and in most cases, that puts you out of it. Having a harder routine helps and adds to your score, but not to the extent that it's okay for it to be beyond what you can actually do correctly. I'm sure they could modify it to account for the artistic factor and the more necessarily subjective bits (like footwork difficulty)

[moojja.livejournal.com]

You obviously haven't watch gymnastics in a while. They no longer uses the 10.0 system. They have a value to every element. For example: If a gymnast attempt a vault that is worth 9.5, then a judge decide on the quality, going from 1 to 10, and it's the combined score that counts.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

I've watched NCAA gymnastics more recently than the regular sort, which I may not have seen since the last Olympics. So you're saying the score on that vault would be a 19.5 if they did it perfectly? Seems strange, but still much more sensible than figure skating scoring. Was there a reason they changed it?

[moojja.livejournal.com]

I don't know the details. But here is the wiki article on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Points_(artistic_gymnastics)

It gives more detail on the reasoning and implementation.

[roaringmice.livejournal.com]

The figure skating system was, in part, modelled on the ideas that formed the basis in the changes in gymnastics scoring. Gymnastics, like skating, has a long and storied history of judging issues. That was part of the reason for the changes.

In part, it's that rather than starting with a 10 (or a 6) and being marked DOWN for what you do blatently wrong, with these new systems, you start at 0 and get points for each little thing you do, and for how well you do it.

It's like, in the olden days, you could score very well with a not-super-difficult program (relatively speaking) that was skated cleanly, versus someone else with a harder program that had some glitches to the jumps. With the new system, the person with the harder program and the glitches may win over the cleaner program because, as in gymnastics, they had more difficulty.

And while the new scoring system in skating certainly could be improved, it's better than the old 6.0 system. Back under 6.0, I felt that the only thing that really counted was your jumps. You could have the most awesome, difficult footwork and spins in the world, truly innovative, and it seemed not to matter. Now, the new system places firm weight on all the elements of skating. Thus someone like Jeff Buttle, (nice icon, btw) who may have some jump issues, is rewarded for his footwork and spins. And he should be. He's amazing, when he's on, and that stuff's hard.

[libitina]

I am strongly considering going to the 2010 games. (but I don't want to sit in nosebleed seats)

And, yeah, I have no idea about the scoring these days, but I can smile and nod with the rest of people.

Okay, when I first looked, I couldn't find anything on youtube, but for the moment there are videos (until they get pulled for copyright)

Lysacek LP - Does not look as good on video as you described.

Weir LP - OMG. Why have I not been obsessing over him more?

[dubhartach.livejournal.com]

Yes - I automatically watched Lyascek first and was meh about it. Then watched Weir not expecting much and wow, that looked fantastic.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

You really have to see Lysacek in person. I saw video of his short program and -- it doesn't even look like the performance I watched.

Actually, WG's a figure skating convert but he'll only watch it live. Having seen it in person, he's not interested in the TV/videos of it.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Ah. It's Lysacek's SP that was mind-blowing, but doesn't come across as well on film as it did in person.

I'm considering going, too. Here's the price list, ranging from $50, to $150, to $250, to $420 (http://www.vancouver2010.com/en/Participation/SpectatorInformation/Tickets/TicketPrices). Hey, maybe we can share hotel costs.

Weir's just, muh, what a beautiful skater.

Icarus

[libitina]

I have heard rumor that Weir practices near me, but I have no idea where to even look to find the right stalkerish details. I'm hoping someone else will stalk for me and sweep me allong with enthusiasm.

I was looking at the hotel I stayed at in Burnaby for the Stargate convention. It was a Marriott, and I'm a member of their rewards club; it had an awesome and cheap foodcourt in the basement; it was far enough out that it might not be as expensive as other Vancouver hotels; and it was about three blocks from easy public transit (Skybus) into the city.

Also from the convention, I found out that flying to Seattle is half the price of flying to Vancouver, so at the least I would be interested in carpooling up there.

Is it legal to get a Canadian to buy us tickets by proxy, or do you think they have some kind of mechanism to prevent that?

Wishlist
$175 - Either opening or closing ceremonies (2/12 or 2/28)
$250 - Men's short (2/16)
$275 - Men's free (2/18) (unless the seating chart has only 10 front rows as A, in which case I might pay for more. But otherwise my luck would run to being in the very last row of A and not having gotten anything for the money)
$175 - Gala exhibition (2/28)
$ 65 - Curling qualifications (2/16-2/23 - though I guess a ticket is one day only)
------
$940 ... plus travel, lodging, and food. And other random touristy things for the roughly 10+ empty days

Or I could save a lot of money by not staying for the gala... but that would make me kinda sad.

[roaringmice.livejournal.com]

Weir skates at one of my rinks, in Wayne, NJ. Don't stalk him, please. That'd be creepy. :LOL: But the next time he has a show, I'll let you know. Tix are cheap - maybe $10?

[libitina]

C'mon - you saw exactly how much of a crazy fangirl I am. If he were wearing eyeliner and his full costume, I'd probably still be turning to you and saying, "So what's that one's name, again?" But, yes, that sounds like a lot of fun. It was really fun seeing good people skating up close, and I would love to do that again.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Actually, I need to track down where a nationals-level skater practices (any nationals-level skater) and quietly watch. I learned so much just from watching the skaters and coaches interact at competitions.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Bring a newspaper or your laptop, so it looks like you're waiting and not spying.

From what I notice, I'll be taken for a parent if I carry enough bags, bottles, backpacks and crap for an Everest expedition. ;)

[roaringmice.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Bring a wheelie bag full o'crap, and you'll be good!

[roaringmice.livejournal.com]

You can watch, at many rinks. Depends on the rink, and it's better if there are multiple skaters on the ice, or multiple rinks so that it's as if your kids could be on the other ice surface (LOL), but in most cases, you just walk on in and take a seat on the chairs or in the stands. Get some coffee from the snack bar or something. Bring a newspaper or your laptop, so it looks like you're waiting and not spying. You generally would not stand at the boards and watch, but you could sit in the stands if you see others in them, in the snack bar if it has a view, or in whatever chair/waiting area the rink has. Just follow the lead of the other "spectators" (who are probably parents and waiting skaters, etc.)

I frequently, when I'm waiting for my skates to be sharpened or something, sit and watch the elite level ice dancers and pairs in Hackensack. I also watch the senior level girls skate, sometimes. But that's a busy rink, and there are chairs right at the windows to each rink for the very purpose of watching.

I'm sure there are some rinks that won't let you do this, but it's not a big deal at every rink I skate at here in NY/NJ.

I don't even know which elite level skaters, if any, skate out of your region, so I'm afraid I can't be more helpful.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I don't think any do. We didn't even have a Senior Men's Regional because, well, no one showed.

If anyone skates in the San Francisco region however... or Toronto? My dad lives in Toronto and I do plan to visit. *g*

[roaringmice.livejournal.com]

Some do skate in Toronto, and I have to believe that some skate in Vancouver, BC. Let me see if I can find out.

[roaringmice.livejournal.com]

In Vancouver, BC, it's the Burnaby 8 rinks and the BC Centre of Excellence.

In Toronto, the elite skaters train at the Toronto Cricket, Curling and Skating Club, as well as at the Granite Club.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Right on. Thank you. This will really help a lot. *packs the wheelie bag*

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Oh, wow. The BC Centre of Excellence is one heck of a serious skating center (http://www.icesports.com/Burnaby_BCCentreofExcellence.ashx?lang=en).

[roaringmice.livejournal.com]

I think Emmanuel Sandhu used to (maybe still does) skate there. Several other elite Canadian and international skaters are based there.

[tekalynn.livejournal.com]

Nice! I assume that's CD not USD prices.

[libitina]

yup - but maybe we'll have a better economy by then.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Oh, and here's Lysacek's SP (http://www.mediafire.com/?cfmmt599yzw), but he's one of those skaters -- you had to have been there. Todd Eldridge is the same way. It's something about his charisma and presence on the ice.

[libitina]

I know, that's why I phrased my complaint the way I did - he was absolutely breathtaking in person, even when doing *nothing*

[moojja.livejournal.com]

I'm going to be the exception in this post. I don't like the 6.0 system. B/c really what does perfection means anyways? I've always thought of 6.0 as "I like you, and you weren't skating in the first group."

I disagree with arclevel's example, b/c now spins and footwork counts. You can do two quads, but if you can't spin or do footwork, then your technical score will drop.

It's not about the jumps anymore.

For example Scott Smith in 2006 Nationals is the only person to not fall on a quad, (he landed a quad sal) and he didn't even make the podium.

The COP is very nitpicky, you will hear skaters complain about having to change a spin to get a level 4 than a level 3. But I say as a competition, I like this way better. We can still see the artistic stuff in the exhibitions.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

It's a good point, it's good for the skaters. But more difficult for the casual skating fans to understand and partially responsible for the drop in interest in figure skating.

Frankly, for me, the events to attend at the Olympics are the snowboarding half-pipe, the ski jump, the freestyle ... and figure skating. Why? Because for these events you get to see the whole event, from start to finish. Skiing, not so much. Figure skating is the best for the viewers because even when there's nothing going on -- there's something going on.

[roaringmice.livejournal.com]

The ratings of US Nationals went up this year, by something like double what they were when the event was on ABC/ESPN rather than NBC. Positive development.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I heard, and that's excellent news. I think -- I'm not sure -- but I think the fact that the Olympics will be happening in our backyard has people thinking about their favorite sports, early.

It also helps that the coverage was on network TV. ESPN did a crappy job of covering last year's Worlds, giving us hours of dull interviews for the women's skating while with the men? They barely gave us the skating.

[nicocoer.livejournal.com]

. . . 2010 is in Vancouver? Oooooo. . . I know you said nosebleeds start at $50, but what's the price range otherwise? My uncle lives in Seattle, and going up from there with him or his daughter would be fun, even if we just go over night (or even day trip, but ouch.) And yeah. *_*

It sounds like Nationals were AMAZING. And I agree, that scoring system is confusing. ;_;

Good luck with the tutoring?

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Here's the link to the 2010 Vancouver Olympics (http://www.vancouver2010.com/en/Participation/SpectatorInformation/Tickets/TicketPrices)

Then I just heard from roaringmice that Skate America will be held in Everett, WA on October 23-26th, 2008 (http://www.2008skateamerica.com/).

Then in preparation for the Olympics the unconfirmed rumor is that the Four Continents in 2009 will be Vancouver as well - February 2-8, 2009 in Vancouver’s Pacific Coliseum (http://www.skatetoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6432).

Wow.

[nicocoer.livejournal.com]

wow. *blink blink* I'll have to get a hold of my uncle!

[rabidfan.livejournal.com]

I can't say that I understand the new system...I don't. I'm not sure the judges understand the new system. I do think it (the system, not the judge) may have helped stop some of the "you skated first therefore I can't give you a 6.0 'cause then I'll have no where to go" problems that I so hated. It's still terrible, and I'm sure it will eventually be "tweaked" some more.

Listening to Johnny Weir made me want to slap him. He reminded me of Christian on Project Runway...so, so whiney. I hate the whiney. At least Evan Lysacek managed to say something nice...my mother would have been proud.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I didn't see a single pre-competition interview. And I didn't miss them (though come to think of it, I should watch them for Out Of Bounds).

[roaringmice.livejournal.com]

Will John go to an international event for Out of Bounds? If he does, and there are Japanese skaters there - have you yet seen the Japanese media cover skating, in person, at an event you've attended? I don't remember what you've seen in person, sorry.

They are everywhere! I remember, at one Skate America, every time I turned around there was a Japanese crew filming... something. Once it was the facade to the building across the street. They interview fans coming out of the event, asking them things like why Takahashi's footwork didn't score a level 4, and should it not have (and the fans, impressively, often give highly informed answers). They interview the Japanese skater's competitors while the competitor is waiting on line at McDonalds with his family. And when a Japanese skater walks past, it's like a rock star has entered the building. Swoop. Meanwhile, Jeremy Abbott just walked by, unnoticed but for the few. :LOL:

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

My outline does not have him going to an international event within the story. The Japanese press sound very entertaining. Hmm... maybe there's a way I can use this.

[moojja.livejournal.com]

Just an idea, but Mirai Nagasu who just won the US Nationals is very popular in Japan. Partly due to her Japaneses descent, and the Japaneses media is hinting that she might switch to Japan. (No idea if that's true or not, but the Japanese media is paying a lot of attention.)That's one way to get the Japanese media at a non-international event.

Besides, isn't Skate America/America Cup considered an international event. I thought you already mentioned that.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Oh, the America Cup is not Skate America. The America Cup is just a competition I invented in place of the Four Continents.

[moojja.livejournal.com]

LOL. I just thought you moved the time line or something.

[roaringmice.livejournal.com]

If it's in place of 4CCs, then the elite Japanese skaters (and their press) would be there.