Cultural differences between the Milky Way and Pegasus: Pets.

[icarus]

Cultural differences between the Milky Way and Pegasus: Exhibit A.

I think that pets would be something that would confuse Teyla and Ronon. Rodney cooing over his cat (I'm sure he has visitation rights) would strike Ronon as weird.

Ronon, wrinkling his nose: "Why does he treat it like it's a baby?"

John: "Wellll... he's pretty attached to that cat."

Ronon and Teyla exchange confused looks.

John: "The cat's his pet. He has a picture of it in his room."

Teyla: "Ah. Like the way Dr. Waters has a picture of his children." She squints, clearly trying very hard to understand. "So... then Rodney as a single, childless man expends his parental nurturing instincts on an animal."

John: "Oh, I don't know about that. I mean, when I was a kid I had a dog."

Ronon: "And you treated it like a baby?" His expression says that he'd lose all respect for John if it were true.

In the background Rodney says, "You're a little munchkin, yes... yes, now that's a purr...."

John: "I didn't use baby talk." Usually. At least not when anyone was listening. Ronon shifts his stance, giving John a doubtful eye. "Muffin was a great dog."

Ronon: "You name them?"

Teyla: "Muffin...?"

Comments

[photosinensis.livejournal.com]

I now demand that this be used as the basis for some slash. After all, it is SGA, where everything is an opportunity for buttsex.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I just to a very, very bad place. (I'm sorry, Muffin.)

[sulien77.livejournal.com]

Muffin? John's dog's name was Muffin? *giggles madly* I love it. And Rodney baby-talking to his cat is priceless.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

John's very defensive about it. *g*

[sulien77.livejournal.com]

I think it's adorable. I gather Muffin was a smallish little rag mop type dog and the name is short for "Ragamuffin"?

Good grief, now I've got to go looking for more pet fics because I want to see John snuggling a fluffy little dog. *facepalm* And I'm not even much of a dog person, for crying out loud.

[maxinemayer.livejournal.com]

I love the cat in your icon, sulien77 - he or she is simply beautiful!
Love, max
P.S. As for pets in Pegasus, I just wish Rodney could have brought his cat along!

[sulien77.livejournal.com]

Thanks, Max! :-D This is Rocky, my spoiled rotten cat. Ow... Pardon, I've just been corrected. This is the sweet, lovable Siamese who owns me. *cough*

I agree! I would love to see Rodney with his cat.

[orca-girl.livejournal.com]

I dunno. I would expect Teyla's community to find the concept of pets to be weird (I don't even recall them being depicted as having working animals... in fact, come to think of it, does the show just completely dodge the question of animals in the Pegasus Galaxy, because while they don't mind human-like Ancients gadding about, they are loathe to introduce the "mundanity" of regular old cats or dogs or horses to what ought to be an "alien" galaxy? hmm). ... I was going to say, they're not shown as having animals around their camps, are they? And then I was going to say that I wasn't sure if that entirely made sense (from an anthropological perspective, that is; aside from the constraints of the show). And that's when I realized what I said tangentially above -- is there any instance at all in SGA of any animal life being glimpsed in the background (aside from the yucky bug that fells John in S1)?

Just wondering. It's not like animals (Earth-derived, that is), either wild or domesticated, are thick on the ground in SG-1, either. We know they exist, but we don't often see them, because of budget constraints. We were shown them just often enough that we can infer their presence in other cases. But we can't necessarily infer them in Pegasus.

Anyway... back to my point... despite Ronon's "primitive survivalist" veneer and ruthlessly pragmatic outlook, we *do* know what the world/society he came from looked like -- and basically, it didn't look that different from our world, in terms of social structure and trappings. A smidge "less advanced" in some ways, definitely more advanced (weapons) than others.

Why assume that his world (with its urban centers and hospitals and so on) didn't have any concept of "pets"?

I mean, if you want to say that you want them not to have that concept because you want them to seem more alien, that's fine. Maybe they only have working animals, no non-working domesticated ones. Or, maybe the people who live in urban areas aren't much exposed to animals at all (the way heavily urbanized people in our world aren't that familiar with farm animals).

Or maybe you think that Ronon -- like some people in our own society -- just personally would find the concept strange, as a quirk of his personality (rather it being something he doesn't understand because his world/society didn't have the concept at all).

I just find it odd to conclude in any automatic way that Ronon's culture both didn't have pets, and also didn't have working animals that people developed relationships with. Seems like an outre conclusion, and it seems a little forced to me. (It's just as easy for me to imagine Ronon growing up with a dog that he liked and played with; maybe not a "pet" pe se, maybe a working animal, but still.)

Is there any direct evidence once way or the other in the show? Has he ever commented on it?

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Because it's fun, orca_girl. You're taking this way too seriously.

[orca-girl.livejournal.com]

*rolls eyes* Occasionally, people like to do that. It's called "fandom", I think. :P

I'm sorry -- yes, your vignette was very cute and funny!

I apologize if it started me actually *thinking for real* about the question it raised.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I threw this out there in the middle of midterms as I was running out the door. Actually, I missed the bus as a result.

If you want *that* kind of fun... I can see Teyla not understanding pets. In addition to being agricultural, where you learn you can't get too close to your dinner, having to pack up and move (note their tents) means that any animals have to be useful animals.

As for Ronon, you could make a case either way. But owning pets isn't necessarily connected to a rise in wealth, security, and technology.

Oh, by the way, I never got back to you on the Iran thing. It turned out that we'd learned in October 2007 that Iran hadn't had a nuclear weapons program since 2003. So the whole time the Iraqi president was here being abused, our gov't knew that there was no Iran nuclear weapons program. Cheney made another push for war with Iran, and the CIA let their findings about Iran's so-called nuclear weapons program be known in the press. (Cheney The Bush administration then released info on the CIA using water-boarding that same week, in fairly obvious retaliation.)

I didn't post about it because I decided "nyah, nyah, I was right" wasn't a dignified response. While Iran is a threat to our control of Iraq when we leave -- and I don't feel we should have been in Iraq in the first place -- militarily, Iran is no threat to us.

[orca-girl.livejournal.com]

I don't think I ever said that I *thought* that Iran was a threat to us, military or otherwise. My objections to the Iranian president, as a human being and a leader, are not based on whether or not his country has a nuclear program of any sort, military or not. So, yes -- you're right. I'm NOT SURPRISED that you're right, because I think our government consists of a bunch of lying hypocrits anyway, and I was *never arguing that they weren't*. But your being right doesn't impact the argument that I *was* making, at the time.

However -- I don't mean to use a cheap rhetorical argument, but the fact is, I do not wish to resurrect this debate. I chose to walk away from the last thread because it was making me angry. I don't want to get into it again, and I won't.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I remember comments and conversations in my journal and who I had them with -- especially unfinished ones. I'd promised to get back to you and I got busy and didn't. I felt at the time that President Ahmadinejad was being treated unfairly, and he most certainly was. Even moreso than I knew at the time.

[rabidfan.livejournal.com]

Ronon would want to eat 'em. Teyla's take was priceless. "As a childless man...". Yup. Muffin? Seriously!

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! ♥

[ansku]

:D

[lerah99.livejournal.com]

Too cute! I adore Ronan and Teyla being so confused over pets. Thank you for posting this! It's awesome!

[moojja.livejournal.com]

I think in an agriculture society, you love the animals you work with, but if it comes to it, they're another source of protein. (They just feel really bad doing it.)

Still, I'm sure kids get overly attached. (Bad example, but Old Yellow comes to mind.)

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

A friend of my mom's raised rabbits one winter. The kids named them. And then that (literally) fatal day came. At dinner, the kids ran out to the rabbit cages to see which of "their" rabbits was... well... you know.

[argosy.livejournal.com]

Hee! *loves*

Though to get (a little) serious for a second, I can certainly see domestic animals helping/being a part of Pegasus cultures like the Athosians, for instance.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I'm basing this on my Tibetan friends. They lived in an agricultural society and they did not understand the way we acted with pets at all. Animals were either a) wild, and dangerous, b) useful, like a guard dog or a horse, or c) delicious. There was no category for pets.

[orca-girl.livejournal.com]

Which, as I say, is great for Teyla. But Ronon doesn't come from a low-tech, agricultural society. :P

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

See my comment above. You could make a case. But high-tech does not equal western concepts about pets. I have a friend from the Virgin Islands (technically American, with a modern life similar to any U.S. middle class family) and he didn't understand the way we are with pets at all. Yes, they had a dog, but it stayed outside. It was never treated like "one of the family" because... it was a dog.

[orca-girl.livejournal.com]

Well, and that's what I said -- I *can see* giving Ronon's world a distinctly different cultural regard for domesticated animals than we have, as a means of making them seem "alien". But I don't think that what we've been presented with so far immediately suggests that his world has that attitude -- in contrast to Teyla's culture, in which I think proceeding from that assumption makes a great deal of cultural sense. Ronon's could go either way.

(It reminded me in a bad way of a fannish tendency to treat Ronon -- as the show so "delightfully" put it -- as Conan the Barbarian. That's not the type of culture he's from and therefore that's not the type of character he has to be. I'm not, I should say carefully, accusing you of saying that he *is*. For all I know, I'm preaching to the choir to you on that one. My original comment was meant as tangential, not as refutation.)

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I read a fanfic last night where Ronon deliberately asked Rodney the meaning of a mathematical term, playing on Rodney's assumption that Ronon was a caveman just to wind him up. John's mental aside was that Rodney always forgot that Ronon was college-educated and from a culture where spacecraft and ray-guns were standard issue.

That sums up my feeling on Ronon. He considers being underestimated a tactical advantage, so lets people underestimate him all the time. So he'd be pleased that fandom does the same. ;)

I always want to make the cultures in the Stargate world different from ours. Some of Ronon's casual use of Earth idioms make me itch.

[orca-girl.livejournal.com]

Yeah, on reflection, it doesn't surprise me that I'm drawn to Ronon pretty much the most out of anyone on Atlantis: Ronon isn't the Teal'c of the show; he's the Jack. That explains *so much*. (I still don't feel compelled enough to dive into the show's fandom, but...)

His Earth-idiom use makes me itch sometimes, too, although by and large I appreciate JM's natural delivery of his lines far more than the usual stilted alien-speak. I handwave it by figuring he's the type who sponges up new stuff and adopts what he likes, so that (*hopefully*!) he got all those Earth idioms from his new Earth buddies. In which case it makes for a nice change from the contraction-less formalized speech of most other "aliens".

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

He is the Jack. I'm charmed.

Ronon is a nice break from "take me to your leader" speak. Just once I want an alien culture that uses very flowery language. Those medieval eps were a perfect opportunity. Instead of "We are honored by your presence, Colonel Sheppard" I'd like to see "The stars shine gloriously upon our meeting, honored Lt. Colonel Sheppard."

"Uh. John would be fine."

"If you wish, honored John, the Lt. Colonel Sheppard."

[orca-girl.livejournal.com]

See, that would be awesome. Also the opportunity for much hilarity. Unlike that recent "Harmony" ep -- where it would've been really appropriate, and yet the line readings couldn't have been more wooden. (With the possible exception of the one guy who we think was trying to channel Eddie Izzard a bit.)

That's what the show needs to do -- HIRE RENFAIRE ACTORS! omg yes.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

That's what the show needs to do -- HIRE RENFAIRE ACTORS! omg yes.

We should start a petition. *nods* Yes.

[bruinsfan.livejournal.com]

Didn't they already hire Peter Woodward?

Sorry, sorry. I know he's supposedly a hotshot Shakespearean actor beloved by all, but I don't think he's ever successfully toned that down enough for his performances to work with a television camera as opposed to the back row of a 5,000 seat theatre. Whenever one of his characters makes a dramatic pronouncment of ominous portent—as they all seem inclined to do—I can't help thinking "And now will you and Magenta be leading us in a rousing verse of the Time Warp, Riff?"

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Adding to this: We need more information on Sateda. Which, hey, I'm all for more Sateda episodes.

If I were to make guesses on what we know so far, I would say Sateda's patriarchal, militarized (I would bet that there is mandatory military service), with a complex state (necessary for that size of city) -- and we know it's politically corrupt.

I gather that political and military leaders were one and the same (Ronon's task master had considerable political sway). Either it was military from the roof down, or there was a military coup, or a military party came into power via elections. Ronon was comfortable enough with Elizabeth bein in authority, so probably it was one of the latter two. Though I like the idea of creating a completely militarized modern society based loosely on the Spartans -- extended through various changes, reforms, and modern technology. It would be entertaining.

[orca-girl.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that all makes sense, from what we saw. I sincerely hope they do *something* else with Sateda, although I guess they feel constrained by the fact that a lot of it would have to be flashbacky or something. Dunno. I can't believe that narrative problem couldn't be solved.

And on the pets vs. "advanced" society issue -- sure, I'd be all for an on-purpose design of that sort of thing that was specifically intended to go against our own cultural expectations. (But then, I'm a fan of the Cherryh "Foreigner" universe, which has moderately advanced, civilized aliens who have working animals, but no pets, and very strong ideas about what you should and shouldn't do with animals -- such as, not domesticating any for meat.)

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Foreigner's excellent, though I've always been a Cyteen gal. *g* One of my favorite books of all time is The Left Hand Of Darkness because LeGuin immerses you until you see from the aliens' eyes.

I guess they feel constrained by the fact that a lot of it would have to be flashbacky or something.

More Satedan refugees could show up. We got such an insight into Sateda just from "He was Ronon's task master. There is no closer bond." And the fact that the Satedans all seemed to feel it was Ronon's right to bring down the Frankenstein he'd served. It was all so telling.

I'd go for something like that. Something where the implications give us whiplash, that for all that Ronon's soaked up Earth culture, he is from a very different society. Maybe even one that Teyla doesn't always understand. That would be cool.

[orca-girl.livejournal.com]

More about the Satedans as a sort of counterpoint to the Genii would be nice -- it's a little frustrating that the only moderately-advanced culture they keep running into is so asshattish. (Not unrealistic, but...) Not that the Satedans necessarily *are* a counterpoint. It'd be nice to know more, that's all.

I get why it often seems like Teyla and Ronon form a natural bloc of "people native to this galaxy" -- I just sort of wish that more would be made sometimes that hey, the Tau'ri and the Jaffa are both natives of the same galaxy, but culturally, they're worlds apart. Granted, there's nothing like outsiders to make two very different peoples form a bond based on commonality. Just... yeah.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

As a little aside, my friend from the (well-developed) Virgin Islands also thought Americans and their pets were a little nutty. Yes, you'd have a dog, but the dog stayed outside.