Resistance to flu drug widespread in US: study

[icarus]

And this would be why I don't get a flu shot:

Resistance to flu drug widespread in US: study

Viruses are highly adaptive. We've overused antibiotics. Many antibiotics are now ineffective. Now three flu drugs are ineffective: rimantadine and amantadine and Tamiflu. It's obvious to me that we've overused flu vaccines. Those should be for small children, the sick, and the elderly. Not pushed by companies that don't want to pay for sick days.

In other news: looking at a mountain of work for school.

Starting. That's the hard part. Starting.


ETA: Folks keep thinking that I'm mixing up vaccines with the drugs used to treat influenza. No. I'm not.

Doctors will still say get the flu vaccine, the same way they used to prescribe antibiotics like candy.

I was leery back in the 80s when everyone was prescribed an antibiotic for everything.

I evaded the antibiotics then. I'm not a bit surprised to find they were overused to the point of uselessness. People argued with me then, too.

Now I'm not buying it on the flu vaccines.

This is just one person's anecdotal observation, but I've noticed the flu season has been getting worse and worse. That spike began in the mid-to-late 90s when flu vaccines started being used to inoculate everyone who'd take it, and not just the vulnerable. (Actually, the spike started when flu vaccine makers began marketing to businesses that they'd have less loss of productivity if they got their employees to take it.)

Mark my words. In three to five years we'll start seeing studies that show an increase in the severity and number of flu viruses. In ten, we'll see a link between overuse of flu vaccines and the sheer variety and severity of flus.

Flu vaccines just aren't the same as your typical mumps, rubella, etc. vaccine. Viruses mutate. That constant mutation is why the flu vaccine has to be different each year, and why it only includes an immunization for the top seven or eight viruses the CDC guesses will be the "bad ones" for the season.

Comments

[rikibeth.livejournal.com]

But the antiviral drugs are not the same thing as the vaccines. It sounds more to me like we've overused the antivirals and most of the common strains have developed resistance to THOSE, and the only way left to stay protected against flu IS to be vaccinated, because once again there's no treatment.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

No, they aren't the same. And the doctors will say get the flu vaccine, the same way they used to prescribe antibiotics like candy.

I was leery back in the 80s when everyone took an antibiotic for everything. I evaded the antibiotics then.

I'm not a bit surprised to find they were overused to the point of uselessness.

Now I'm not buying it on the flu vaccines.

This is just one person's anecdotal observation, but I've noticed the flu season has been getting worse and worse. That spike began in the mid-to-late 90s when flu vaccines started being used to inoculate everyone who'd take it and not just the vulnerable.

Mark my words. In three to five years we'll start seeing studies that show an increase in the severity of flu viruses. In ten, we'll see a link between overuse of flu vaccines and the sheer variety and severity of flus.

Flu vaccines just aren't the same as your typical mumps, rubella, and so forth. Viruses mutate.

[keenoled.livejournal.com]

Antibiotics don't work on viruses at all, actually. They're for bacteria.
But anyway, saw a documentary about resistent bacteria, and they asked an American doctor about whether or not he would give out antibiotics to a patient who's sick form a virus. He said he would, knew it wouldn't help, but that he saw himself as more of a service minded profession rather than a healing one. That scared me.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't say they use antibiotics on flus. The article is referring to the drugs they use to treat severe, life-threatening cases of influenza, and I'm referring to the overused flu vaccines, betting they're being overused to the point of increasing the severity and mutation of the manifold flu viruses.

But on to your point... they used to give people antibiotics for viruses all the time back in the 80s. Now they're more conscious, but it's hard for a doctor to tell a patient, "You'll just have to suffer through it."

[toyniffler.livejournal.com]

Ok I think you are confusing two different ways of treating viral infections. All the drugs you mention are viral antibiotics, not vaccines. I agree that overuse of antibiotics, weather geared towards bacteria or virus is a problem. Resistance to antibiotics will cause a lot of trouble now and in the future.
Now vaccines are a different kettle of fish, and in my opinion cannot be overused. They make your body produce antibodies that'll kill the virus on sight or in the best scenario you don't get infected at all. No resistance towards vaccines have been recorded, they are very specifially geared towards specific viruses so a "flu vaccine" generally consists of vaccine for several types of flu-virus. Since flu virus evolve quite rapidly they sometimes get obsolete and need to be upgraded to reach peak performance once again. This isn't a big problem since making new vaccnies for flu is easy as long as you know what strain of virus is causing your specific outbreak. A consistent vaccine regimen can eradicate less adaptable virus than the flu, for example the small pox and in many parts of the world the measles.
As I said I agree with you in using less antibiotics, but do not confuse them with vaccines.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

No, I'm not.

Read my replies to the other comments first.

[teenygozer.livejournal.com]

They must have moved the article, your link doesn't get you there anymore:

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5214YM20090302

That's the URL that worked for me. Interesting article: we've created super-bug bacteria through the over-use of antibiotics, now we seem to be creating super-viruses through the over-use of antivirals. A hospital-created super-bacteria got my father last month -- it's called C-diff and he died of septicemia, which had nothing to do with why he was in the hospital in the first place. I don't relish the idea of following in his footsteps by someday dying of a super-virus caused by over use of antivirals.

But flu vaccines =/= to antivirals. Flu vaccines introduce a tiny bit of weakened or dead flu virus into the patient's body so that their body will be able to fight off a larger exposure to the flu later on with the creation of antibodies (the patient's body fights the flu, not the vaccine itself.) For many reasons, vaccines don't always work, hence the patients who got the flu despite getting the vaccine -- but that's not because vaccines have created tougher viruses.

Hope your mountain of work soon looks like a mere molehill!

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

No, they're not. And I didn't say they were. Read my replies to the other comments.

[spock74.livejournal.com]

Well, speaking as someone who could literally die if I do get the flu, I'll take my chances that they picked the right strain to vaccinate against this year. There are certainly jillions of others that could also kill me, but why not at least take precautions against one of the more common ones?

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

If you're part of the vulnerable population, you should definitely get the vaccine.

[ncp.livejournal.com]

I agree completely. Flu vaccines are useless, which is why I have never gotten one (well, not true. I allowed myself to be talked into taking one when I was pregnant). My son hasn't ever had one either. Maybe next year when he's in daycare I'll think about it.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

The CDC doesn't include every flu virus they know of that year in each season's vaccine. That would be prohibitively expensive. So they make a guess at what they think will be the top seven or flus. The vaccine is a "greatest hits."

A few years ago their guess was wrong, and there was a severe shortage of the flu vaccine because the makers had to gear up a different vaccine, ASAP.

So if you get the flu when you've had the shot, that's why. You got one of the versions they didn't cover.

rikibeth points out that it's been theorized that the increase in virus mutation has been the result in Chinese farming practices.

I buy that. The increase in travel between China and the west would spread the viruses.

But I also think the viruses are spreading more widely because those inoculated are still carriers. Since they don't have any symptoms they take no precautions to prevent spreading the virus to those who don't have the vaccine. And the vaccine companies can't vaccinate every man, woman and child in the U.S.

Now my gut instinct says that when a large portion of the population can resist a virus -- well okay. Ideally, viruses become weaker and less effective, and pretty soon the flu is a thing of the past.

But that doesn't seem to happen.

What seems to happen is the next generation of viruses are better, bigger, stronger.

I look around at the increasingly severe flu season, and I don't think it's all China.

[pokemonjuggler.livejournal.com]

I'm just wondering how you are making the jump to us overusing vaccinations from that article when the only part about vaccines in there is about how sometimes it doesn't work, which you can say about other vaccines as well. The vaccine helps to build up your immune system by allowing your cells to build up antibodies, while antibiotics combat the bacteria themselves. They work in different ways and as far as I know, there isn't really a way that they could somehow be immune to vaccines, since the vaccine is just about improving your own immune system's reaction to a specific strain of the virus and does not have anything to do with how the virus mutates.

Where else are you getting this information besides just the article or if you could explain more about why you think it's obvious that we have overused vaccines?

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Read my other comments, I've already gone over this.

[wenelda.livejournal.com]

I never get a flu vaccination and I've never had the flu. I'm incredibly leery of the overuse of antibiotics, so I never go to the doctor unless I seriously can't figure out what's wrong because I don't want to be over-medicated to the point that something as simple as tylonol doesn't work for me.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

What I've learned here from a microbiologist and someone's immunologist is:
That's been my feeling for years. What I've learned in this post from a microbiologist and someone's immunologist is illuminating:

1) You sacrifice your long-term health for your short-term health by taking the flu shot, because the antibodies from the flu shot are temporary, while the antibodies from getting sick and recovering are permanent.

2) Therefore only those in serious danger from the flu should get the shot.

3) Best to get the kind of vaccines that you take through the nose. It's the point of entry for viruses and they are far better.

And a lot of people say the worst flu they ever got was right after they took the flu shot.

[fiatincantatum.livejournal.com]

I've read your other comments.

I think you're confused about how antibiotics/antivirals and vaccines work.

Antibiotics(and antivirals) work like poisons. They kill all targets that don't have a resistance to them. In a perfect world, they're taken long enough that the surviving targets are very very few and the body's own defenses can mop them up. In the world we live in, people don't take the entire regimen, or take it intermittently, allowing stronger targets to survive and multiply. Over-prescription and lack of monitoring of people taking antibiotics has let to multiple drug resistant strains.

A vaccine operates like a wanted poster. It wakes up your own body's defenses and shows them a picture of the target. Then, when the target shows up, the body is already aware of the problem and revved up for it.

It's possible (even likely) to overuse antibiotics. It's not possible to overuse vaccines.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

No, I'm not confused. You've misread my comments.

I never said at any point that vaccines can become ineffective or overused. That's impossible. Especially with the flu virus vaccine, which contains six or seven different flu viruses every year.

I've explained this up-thread.

[piplover.livejournal.com]

While in the Army I was forced to get the flu vaccine, and each year I got really sick. The last year they gave everyone experimental drugs, ones that you inhaled and carried an actual strain of the flu. We were basically human lab rats, because it wasn't being marketed yet. My roomate was pregnant at the time and ended up delivering three months early because of it.

I haven't got the vaccine once since I got out, and have only had a very mild case of flu once. I totally agree with you on the vaccine, and think that the pharmaceutical companies have way too much power in this world.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Jesus. I hope the baby was okay.

I've learned four things in this thread:

What I've learned here from a microbiologist and someone's immunologist is:

1) You sacrifice your long-term health for your short-term health by taking the flu shot, because the antibodies from the flu shot are temporary, while the antibodies from getting sick and recovering are permanent.

2) Only those in serious danger from the flu should get the shot.

3) You should only get the kind of vaccines that you take through the nose. It's the point of entry for viruses and they are far better.

4) A lot people get sick right after they get the flu shot, and it's often worse than what they usually experience.

[smuffster.livejournal.com]

Every person I've ever known to get the flu vaccine has gotten sicker than all the rest of us when flu season came around. I don't get why anyone would bother. Yeah, it sucks to be sick, but surely it's good for the immune system.

And why would you vaccinate your kids rather than letting them get sick? I get it for stuff like MMR and chicken pox, but not for flu.

[jamethiel]

GOD YES. Apart from anything else, the immunity from a vaccine does not last as long as the immunity from catching actual flu. As an example:

In the late 80's there was a flu pandemic. But it displayed unusual mortality patterns. It wasn't attacking the elderly, like you'd expect it was, but it was killing people from middle age down. Why? Because the elderly had suffered through the Spanish Flu Pandemic of 1918-1919. The haemagglutin wasn't the same in this strain, but the neuraminidase was and that was enough to give the elderly partial immunity. 70 years later.

So why do they tell you to get a flu shot every season? Oh yeah, that's right, different strains. But there aren't that many combinations of H and N, so surely getting immunised with one configuration one year would mean that you're partially immune the next. Except that no, because for whatever reason the immunity doesn't last the way that actually catching the flu does.

(I have a microbiology degree. So if I'm coming out against a vaccine, better believe it's not that good an idea. I am entirely PRO vaccines for things like Measles, Mumps, Rubella and chickenpox. As a matter of fact, given the effects these can have on the pregnant, I believe that people who AREN'T vaccinated are irresponsible and relying on herd immunity. I have asthma, I'm in a high risk group. But until I get old or immunocompromised, I'm not getting vaccinated.)

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Wow. People who get the flu vaccine are told that it will give them the same immunity as catching it does. This is worse than I thought.

Thank you.

I got suspicious when my employer pushed the flu shot but my doctor didn't.

[elandev.livejournal.com]

I haven't gotten around to reading the article yet, have to be up early to look at fossils, but I agree that the overuse vaccines and antibiotics are over used and can cause more problems than they help in the long run. Even the phobia we have towards 'germs' and the ultra cleanliness that follows on from that is causing people to have weaker immune systems. Which together with the flux of super bugs isn't such a great combination. There seems to be a general idea that there is a pill for everything, while as the last poster mentioned, as a healthy adult, being sick can actually make your immune system stronger in the long run.

I've never been vaccinated for flu, and I don't plan on it in the near future. On the matter of antibiotics, unfortunately I am prone to very severe cyst infections which mean that I have to them at least every few years.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

What I've learned here from a microbiologist and someone's immunologist is:

1) You sacrifice your long-term health for your short-term health by taking the flu shot. The antibodies from the flu shot are temporary, while the antibodies from getting sick and recovering are permanent.

2) Only those in serious danger from the flu should get the shot.

3) You should only get the kind of vaccines that you take through the nose. It's the point of entry for viruses and they are far better.

[mkcs.livejournal.com]

Huh? What mechanism are you thinking about here. Vaccines work so fundamentally differently to antibiotics that I'm not seeing the parallel. Hell, if everyone is immunised for a disease, the disease dies (smallpox). That's not how it works with antibiotics at all.

There are lots of valid reasons not to use a flu vaccine, but this isn't one that I'm buying.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Read the comments. I've covered this up-thread.

[enname.livejournal.com]

Over here they only recommend that the really young and really elderly take the flu vaccine, especially the elderly. You can get it as none of these groups, but it isn't pushed nearly as much. Mind you, some of the worst cases of flu I have ever had are after the vaccine. I hesitate to speculate why, other than my immune system going into over drive and/or being hit by a newer flu version and being taken out.

Eh, I am violently intolerant to antibiotics. Unless I be dying there is no way I am taking them. Never have.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

A lot of people get really bad flus after taking the flu shot. Often the worst they've ever had. The flu manufacturers say you might experience "flu like symptoms." *eyeroll*

Here there's been a big marketing push to employers, who then pressure their employees to get the flu shot. This has built up peer pressure to get the flu shot. Now when you get sick, people will ask, "Did you get the flu shot?" If you didn't, then getting sick is your own darned fault. *shakes head*

What I've learned here from a microbiologist and someone's immunologist is:

1) You sacrifice your long-term health for your short-term health by taking the flu shot, because the antibodies from the flu shot are temporary, while the antibodies from getting sick and recovering are permanent.

2) Only those in serious danger from the flu should get the shot.

3) You should only get the kind of vaccines that you take through the nose. It's the point of entry for viruses and they are far better.

[dunv-i.livejournal.com]

Hah. I say this to everyone who doesn't shut me up. May I point out that, this year, I was basically told I had to get the flu shot, so I did. And then I got super super sick. Like, disgustingly so; stomach buggy sick.

I haven't gotten that sick since about 2nd grade, nearly ten years ago. The closest to actually sick (instead of just blech-y) I've gotten between then was a day when I woke up really dizzy and realized that if I couldn't safely get out of my loft bed it was a bad idea to go to school.

I also got a significantly annoying cold that took longer than usual to go away, and I lost my voice for teh first time ever (whic hwas bad because I = singer). My conclusion? Flu shot lowers immune system in general.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

They say you might experience "flu-like symptoms." Which... avoiding the symptoms is the only point I see to it, since the shot doesn't give you any permanent immunity.

You're trading in your long-term health for your short-term health... and you still get the flu symptoms? Screw that.

My conclusion? Flu shot lowers immune system in general.

That's my feeling.

Now I've heard from one microbiologist who tells me the flu shot doesn't give you the long-term antibodies you'd get if you just got the flu and recovered.

I've heard advice passed along from an immunologist: get the vaccines you need for school, and the Gardasil vaccine if your family has a history of cervical cancer. Both the anti-flu vaccine and pro-flu vaccine people say to get the kind of vaccine you take by nose (the point of entry for virusii).

What's telling is the push to get the flu shot came not from my doctor, but from my employer, who had a vested interested in cutting down on sick days. Whether it's best for me or not. And from peer pressure which started at work as well.

[fer-de-lance.livejournal.com]

I have always avoided flu shots because of no greater reason than the second word of that phrase, but it's nice to know I'm vindicated.

Also, I think, because I am (relatively) young and am a member of the antibiotic generation (they've been around my entire life) and therefore have difficulty taking the flu seriously.

But mostly because of the SH-word. (It took 'em NINE YEARS to pin me down for a tetanus shot after mine expired!)

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Heh. Funny image there. I take it "pin you down" is literal?

[sherryillk.livejournal.com]

See, this is why I generally pass on the advice of my Immunology professor -- get vaccinated if you're a child, sick, or the elderly and if so, get the nasal spray and not the injection because that will fight the pathogens at their point of entry. Otherwise, outside of the vaccines you need for school, the only other one that's worth getting is Gardasil. But since it is expensive, I think unless you have a familial history of developing cervical cancer, you're probably okay passing on that too.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Oh, excellent advice. Thank you.

[quasar273.livejournal.com]

I've had the flu twice in the last two decades (in my 20s and 30s). Both were in years when I did NOT get the flu shot; after the first experience I got the shot every year except when there was that shortage, and then I got the flu. Both times I was life-threateningly ill and took months to recover fully. I always get the shot, and I've never had a bad reaction.

I also think you're overestimating the economic motives here. Yes, employers want to cut down on sick days, but I'm in line with that -- I don't want to be under the weather for two months every few winters, either! But the truth is pharmaceutical companies don't like vaccines, which are very small profits compared to the big-name drugs, and some years they even lose money. Big pharma would much rather sell us expensive antivirals than cheap vaccines. But large and well-conducted studies show that for MOST people, the vaccines simply work better. But when it comes to a good gripe session, people like me who have good experiences with the vaccine take a back seat while the less-common bad experiences get talked about more.

My sense has been that the flu seems to be getting worse because I, and my friends and family, are all older than we used to be and more vulnerable to the effects. It's usually only really dangerous to the elderly (or immuno-compromised), but it does hit harder in middle age than young adulthood. So naturally it seems like it's getting worse over any one person's lifetime.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

The US flu vaccines are made by only two companies, MedImmune, LLC, and Sanofi pasteur. The latter makes its money solely from vaccines, The former used to make its money solely from vaccines but it was purchased by another company in 2007.

You haven't read the comments, which develop the discussion quite a bit further, but scientists have acknowledged that the flu viruses are mutating rapidly and are getting worse. One of the main theories is that Chinese farming practices are ideal virus-making grounds. Check the discussion with rikibeth.

Microbiologists and many immunologists do not recommend the flu shot for those who are not at risk of dying from influenza.

The reason being is that the flu shot does not develop the long term antibodies. Theoretically, the antibodies should develop from the flu shot. But they don't.

Getting the flu shot therefore sacrifices your long-term health for the sake of your short-term health. Which is even worse than I thought when I made the original post.

[ness-va.livejournal.com]

One thing I hate is how many antibiotics I've been prescribed over the past year. I try not to take them for minor things, but they're all been pretty necessary.

[krysalys.livejournal.com]

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one, m'dear.
I had lots of inner ear infections as a child, as well as strep throat. Always was prescribed penicillin.
Guess what I have a violent allergy/sensitivity to now?
-----}-@