Are you reading
hp_dungeons?
Here's what I'm finding in the RPG madness:
- It breaks inertia with fresh insights, input.
- It gives you the chance to work with many excellent writers, all at once.
- It is a like a movie set. Hurry up and wait, completely messes with your schedule.
- It is a tremendous time-sink.
- It develops some bad writing habits, dependency, and breaks down story structure as the story is pulled between several people.
- It is addictive.
- It concentrates your energy for a small readership; everyone else is left out in the cold.
- It's ephemeral. Once you write it, it's gone. People don't look back and read it later.
- It reduces your story to 'attention grabbers', there's a flattening that happens over time that I can't explain, except it seems to be related to the story structure being pulled in many directions.
- It has politics behind the scenes.
- It is well-nigh impossible to write your own fanfic while you're doing an RPG (at least that's what I find).
What do you think?
Are you waiting for stories that don't seem to be coming?
Are your RPG experiences similar? Different?
Here's what I'm finding in the RPG madness:
- It breaks inertia with fresh insights, input.
- It gives you the chance to work with many excellent writers, all at once.
- It is a like a movie set. Hurry up and wait, completely messes with your schedule.
- It is a tremendous time-sink.
- It develops some bad writing habits, dependency, and breaks down story structure as the story is pulled between several people.
- It is addictive.
- It concentrates your energy for a small readership; everyone else is left out in the cold.
- It's ephemeral. Once you write it, it's gone. People don't look back and read it later.
- It reduces your story to 'attention grabbers', there's a flattening that happens over time that I can't explain, except it seems to be related to the story structure being pulled in many directions.
- It has politics behind the scenes.
- It is well-nigh impossible to write your own fanfic while you're doing an RPG (at least that's what I find).
What do you think?
Are you waiting for stories that don't seem to be coming?
Are your RPG experiences similar? Different?
no subject
Date: 2003-11-12 12:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-11-12 11:07 pm (UTC);)
Icarus
no subject
Date: 2003-11-12 11:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-11-12 12:42 pm (UTC)Oh, yes. I love some of the takes on the characters and their interactions.
- It is a like a movie set. Hurry up and wait, completely messes with your schedule.
And your attention span. I was in a sales meeting this morning and wondering if Charlie was okay.
- It is a tremendous time-sink.
And wears out the F5 button...
- It is addictive.
Virtual heroin. I'm gasping for my fix several times a day.
- It's ephemeral. Once you write it, it's gone. People don't look back and read it later.
I disagree, but I might be in the minority of fen who are so anal and obsessed.
- It reduces your story to 'attention grabbers', there's a flattening that happens over time that I can't explain, except it seems to be related to the story structure being pulled in many directions.
Actually, I get into the backstory more than the 'grabbers' - I always want to know HOW they got to that point in the first place.
- It has politics behind the scenes.
So does everything - and it does suck.
- It is well-nigh impossible to write your own fanfic while you're doing an RPG (at least that's what I find).
Hmm. This I can agree with. I was doing a lot of RP over the summer and it did cut into my fic production.
But all this said - I LOVE the RP. The interactions, the interecting circles within circles feel of the story is wonderful - as is the job that all of you are doing.
no subject
Date: 2003-11-12 11:21 pm (UTC)Icarus
no subject
Date: 2003-11-12 12:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-11-12 11:24 pm (UTC)Icarus
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Date: 2003-11-12 01:01 pm (UTC)But as I said earlier it is a different sort of experience, a different way of writing and a different way of reading. The use of journals makes very intimate.
I don’t see me joining a group or even monitoring another group, but I’m going to stick around this one for a while.
no subject
Date: 2003-11-12 11:27 pm (UTC)The most fascinating was the building of the Halloween conversation between Lucius, Snape, Draco, Percy (and Rita). We were all on at once, posting at once, so it was like we were really standing around, interrupting and reacting to each other. The result was a fairly simple scene - but we didn't really know where it was going to go.
Icarus
no subject
Date: 2003-11-14 12:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-11-12 01:31 pm (UTC)Very true. Seeing the different takes on the characters has inspired me to both read and write pairings and plotlines I probably never would have pursued before.
- It gives you the chance to work with many excellent writers, all at once.
Absolutely the best part of it for me.
- It is a like a movie set. Hurry up and wait, completely messes with your schedule.
Yeah. It's frustrating at times. And then exhilirating when you get into one of those boom-boom-boom posting sessions.
- It is a tremendous time-sink.
Ain't that the truth. *sigh* Never knew how much time would be invested in this...especially with two characters. *whimpers slightly* Fortunately, right now, I have little to no life, but still... *sighs again*
Sometimes I find myself utterly worn out by it all, despite my love for it. It's draining, it's numbing, it's emotionally exhausting a lot of times. And yet, I'm drawn back to the characters and their stories.
- It develops some bad writing habits, dependency, and breaks down story structure as the story is pulled between several people.
Oh, definitely. But I've also found it's developed some good writing habits for myself in some ways. Knowing that other people are waiting for my contributions forces me to write, no matter how I'm feeling. Plus the collaboration is amazing.
- It is addictive.
*whimpers more* Uh-huh. I find myself checking frequently through the day for updates, comments, emails....
- It concentrates your energy for a small readership; everyone else is left out in the cold.
And this worries me a lot, frankly.
- It's ephemeral. Once you write it, it's gone. People don't look back and read it later.
Another one of my concerns. It's not as lasting as an archived story. Although, I think we bypass some of that with the backstories being archived.
But it is very transitory.
- It reduces your story to 'attention grabbers', there's a flattening that happens over time that I can't explain, except it seems to be related to the story structure being pulled in many directions.
And the various characters' responses to the events...
- It has politics behind the scenes.
Yes. *deep sigh*
- It is well-nigh impossible to write your own fanfic while you're doing an RPG (at least that's what I find).
God, yes. I have fics piled up that I really, really want to get to, but I've put them on hold temporarily while I explore this method of writing. I really hope things slow down a bit, so that I can pick up some of them again...
no subject
Date: 2003-11-13 02:41 am (UTC)The experience of performance art, with you and with Isolde has been just amazing.
Absolutely the best part of it for me.
It is for me. You guys are just amazing writers. I never know what you're going to do next, and you have the voices of the characters... just - oh. I am so impressed, and it is such a joy to work with you guys.
And then exhilirating when you get into one of those boom-boom-boom posting sessions.
Oh yeah. Remember that Halloween conversation with Snape, Draco, Percy and Lucius (and Rita, even though she was only there for the beginning)? Awesome.
Never knew how much time would be invested in this...especially with two characters. *whimpers slightly*
I don't know how you and
I'm completely overwhelmed by the time committment, to the point where my boyfriend checks up on me with a worried expression. He knows I don't have time for this and should never have joined.
Plus the collaboration is amazing.
For the most part over the last year (with the exception of when I started school) I've written a story a week, so dithering about producing hasn't been a problem since a different RPG broke me of it a year ago (and resulted in my writing Primer to the Dark Arts, actually).
But the collaboration has been the best part, especially when I don't know what the other character is going to do or say. That's something you don't find in fanfic.
I find myself checking frequently through the day for updates, comments, emails....
It's pathetic! Because I should be overjoyed that I'm finally able to go full-time to school, something I've worked for, for the last 15 years. Instead I'm doing the same thing.
I confess, my addiction has impacted my life very badly, and it hasn't improved since I quit work to focus on school. I think I'm going to have to wrap up our story lines in HP_Dungeons after all.
It concentrates your energy for a small readership; everyone else is left out in the cold. -- And this worries me a lot, frankly.
I'm very worried about this. Like I said, I've been producing about a story a week for the last year.
And the various characters' responses to the events...
Yes. It's like the strength of this is also its weakness.
But it is very transitory.
Yep.
Yes. *deep sigh*
Quite frankly, compared to other RPGs this is going really, really well (knock wood). You've done a terrific job of handling what comes up, and you deserve the credit for how little in the way of politics there has been.
I have fics piled up that I really, really want to get to, but I've put them on hold temporarily while I explore this method of writing.
So far this week I've had three requests for updates on Snape Manor, one request for the next chapter of Beg Me For It, one request for another part of First Signs of Magic....
no subject
Date: 2003-11-13 09:32 am (UTC)As it is for me as well...God, I can't tell you how incredible it is to write with you and Isolde. I've adored your work as it is, and to be able to collaborate like this just blows me away.
Oh yeah. Remember that Halloween conversation with Snape, Draco, Percy and Lucius (and Rita, even though she was only there for the beginning)? Awesome.
Unbelievable. God that was so much fun.
I don't know how you and isolde9 are doing it, I really don't.
It's hard sometimes. Especially with both of us having two characters. Frankly, I'm really glad that our primary interactions stay between those four. We've got Snape/Draco down to where we can add bits and pieces of the other's character without feeling like we have to check every single thing. Harry and Ron are starting to get to the same point, I think.
But it's a lot of work at times.
Naturally, Harry is the lynchpin on how many plots?
Oh, Jesus. Everyone's? *wry grin* I know of at least five off the top of my head other than his own. And I'm positive I'm overlooking one or two.
But the collaboration has been the best part, especially when I don't know what the other character is going to do or say. That's something you don't find in fanfic.
Yeah, that's one of the things I've loved about it. Because you have that opportunity to play the characters off someone else. It's fascinating. You get such interesting insights. (For example...Percy? God, you've given me such a different take on him...one that I just love.)
I confess, my addiction has impacted my life very badly, and it hasn't improved since I quit work to focus on school. I think I'm going to have to wrap up our story lines in HP_Dungeons after all.
Oh, God...I hope not. I'd hate that, really I would. I mean, I understand completely. I really do. But still. *sniffs*
I opened up a post on the author's LJ about this. So far seems like everyone has the same opinion...that we definitely need to slow things down. Significantly. For our own sanities. *wry smile*
I'm thinking calendarize the plots so that we rotate and give everyone a break when needed. Plus that would give us all breathing room to prepare. I'm looking at
Quite frankly, compared to other RPGs this is going really, really well (knock wood). You've done a terrific job of handling what comes up, and you deserve the credit for how little in the way of politics there has been.
*blush* Aw, thanks... So far everyone's been really great.
So far this week I've had three requests for updates on Snape Manor, one request for the next chapter of Beg Me For It, one request for another part of First Signs of Magic....
I know. I've gotten requests this week for a sequel to Whence All Good Things, a continuation of Moon in Aquarius and the sequel for PSRT. *sighs* And I have two, three other fics that I really would like to finish up.
And I haven't read anything major in weeks. Just snippets here and there. Had to force myself the other day to take time to read the latest two chapters of Procul His...
I'm really, really going to have to slow things down a bit on my end once the Harry/Ron/Hermione kerfuffle calms down. If I don't...argh. I worry about that, since Harry is involved in so many plots...but that's precisely the reason I'll have to. He'll be spread way too thin and I think it will end up hurting everyone's end result.
no subject
Date: 2003-11-12 01:49 pm (UTC)I totally disagree. Case in point: last night, I went back and read all of Percy's old posts. Granted, I'm obsessive, but I delight in going back to older posts looking for clues about how things developed.
The most 'ephemeral' part, the lj part, has an archive and threads to track, but by including a website, with (wonderful) backstories, you do make the RPG more 'permanent' for those less obsessive fans.
It reduces your story to 'attention grabbers', there's a flattening that happens over time that I can't explain, except it seems to be related to the story structure being pulled in many directions.
Maybe it's my attention span, but I like following livejournal RPGs, it's fun to check through the day to see if anything interesting has happened. With hp_dungeons' open format -- a wonderful innovation -- I can comment on the goings on. Certainly, I've started caring about the characters and their stories much faster than I have with almost any other RPG I've followed.
Both the format and the interaction with the characters gives hp_dungeons an unusually rich texture. Sure, the attention grabbers are great fun, but I don't need excitement all the time. In fact, if things slowed down for a bit -- in terms of big events, not daily commentary -- I wouldn't mind at all. I'd love to hear more about Percy, Harry, Charlie, Tonks and everyone else's daily life. Meetings, Quidditch lessons, hatchlings with colic, run of the mill auror duties (what is the bog standard day for Tonks?) I want to know it all. Drama, yeah, that's good, but I like the characters you all have developed. They have distinctive voices and I'm happy just hearing them chat.
Yup.
Date: 2003-11-12 06:03 pm (UTC)The problem I have as a reader of these kinds of Games/Shared Universes/Ventures is (and you said it very well) that there are shortcuts taken with the writing. It's also all so immediate...usually what you write only really effects the people you are playing with in your universe. Most readers are left trying to piece it together and if they are lucky wading through (although not all the time) the equivalent of a chat log. While there may still be interesting story arcs going on, I feel that the craftsmanship of the stories takes a beating.
Personally, since I'm not playing in this sandbox and have no way of keeping up (reading the dungeons can be an interesting exercise in "ok what the hell happened?") I long for a return to straight fiction.
However I understand that many people find that this kind of writing inspires them to take chances and branch out and I think these are all very positive things. Besides it's what makes you happen no? And that's all to the good.
Re: Yup.
Date: 2003-11-12 06:49 pm (UTC)I think an RPG can really help if you're in an anal-retentive mode that can't just let things fly, or won't just 'crank it out.' I did the infamous 'An Audience With The King' RPG at the Barrow-downs (Lord of the Rings fandom) and that cured me - for good - of excessive tinkering.
For right now, talking to my creative writing teacher and to CLS, one of my long-term betas (and a good friend), I need to flesh out my stories more. Let them be richer and juicier. I've gone to the opposite extreme in my ruthless editing and 'spare' style.
Icarus
Re: Yup.
Date: 2003-11-12 11:20 pm (UTC)Noooo! Don't drop Percy. He's the Love Machine! We need him.
*vigorously and defiantly waves her "I <3 Percy" banner*
Re: Yup.
Date: 2003-11-13 12:20 am (UTC)Not to worry. I won't abandon Peryc. :)
Icarus
no subject
Date: 2003-11-12 07:01 pm (UTC)Here's what I'm finding in the RPG madness:
- It breaks inertia with fresh insights, input.
- It gives you the chance to work with many excellent writers, all at once.
- It is a like a movie set. Hurry up and wait, completely messes with your schedule.
- It is a tremendous time-sink.
- It develops some bad writing habits, dependency, and breaks down story structure as the story is pulled between several people.
- It is addictive.
- It concentrates your energy for a small readership; everyone else is left out in the cold.
- It's ephemeral. Once you write it, it's gone. People don't look back and read it later.
- It reduces your story to 'attention grabbers', there's a flattening that happens over time that I can't explain, except it seems to be related to the story structure being pulled in many directions.
- It has politics behind the scenes.
- It is well-nigh impossible to write your own fanfic while you're doing an RPG (at least that's what I find).
What do you think? I agree with you that it's a time-sink, which is why I prefer to read and not write them -- just keeping up is an effort. Though a rewarding one! ^_^
Are you waiting for stories that don't seem to be coming? Waiting is a good thing.
Are your RPG experiences similar? Different? I've RPGed twice but not for anything organized. Just being Neville's GF is difficult enough. I MUST say that knowing the amount of work you do, I have the utmost respect for all of your hard work and patience. I told one of you in the dungeons, I can't remember who offhand, that you need to have enough life force for yourself, plus the characters you play. I don't know how you sleep at night, and from the looks of it, many of you don't. If there is one thing I could say to you all, it is that you do a good work with this. I can't speak for anyone else, but I appreciate like crazy all the hard work you're putting into this. Even for those of us just observing, this is an incredible learning experience. I never realized before (because I am not yet a good enough or experienced enough writer) that with good characterization, your characters can really take over your story until you're just as lost and in the middle of events as they are; you lose perspective, and have to work twice as hard to keep it.
Thank you for what you do here. Really, it is a good work and for as tiring as it is, it lifts us all up.
no subject
Date: 2003-11-13 05:05 am (UTC)The more I see posted in the journals of people who are actually contributing, the more I become aware of how it seems to be sucking up people's energies for a temporary product - enormous fun, maybe vitalising, inspiring, but not leading to betterwriting, and certainly not to identifiable stand-alone pieces of good writing, which is probably what most people to would like to get.
And some people seem to be very rapidly affected by an inability to write alone any more, to create their own discipline - deadly, I would have thought. The fun doesn't seem to be worth it.
I still plan to take a look sometime, because a lot of creative people have been playing, but it does seem as if the game isn't worth the candle. I've taken it as a warning. (Saved by my own laziness! But I'm conscious of having enough WIPs, without obligations to a community game I don't control.)
Challenge fics are one thing, but it seems as if cooperative writing is something that, after all, requires even stricter discipline than going it alone.
I hope you don't feel that, because I never became involved, I shouldn't be commenting - I haven't even checked the environment yet, though I still intend to do so, when I have time.
no subject
Date: 2003-11-13 09:56 am (UTC)Heavens to Betsy, are you kidding? It's the people who aren't hooked that I wanted to hear from most, because (giggles nervously) I know the rest of us are no longer sane.
These are some very thoughtful and observant points. My key touchstone of perspective is
For me it has hurt my writing in all areas except my understanding of Percy (and a little of Harry, Ron - plus a new image of Lucius that I love). But I appreciate that it has helped my understand a friend of mine who has struggled with her writing since she wrote an extraordinary collaboration. For that reason it has been worthwhile. But, yep. It's time to get back to my own stories.
Snape Manor, here we come. Though I think to recover I'm going to need to do some short porn pieces.
Icarus
no subject
Date: 2003-11-13 09:57 am (UTC)Icarus
no subject
Date: 2003-11-13 01:44 pm (UTC)A couple of years ago when ER, X-Files, and Homicide where at delicious peak, a New York Times article discussed the difference between good movies and good series. Basically, he argued that with such quality television and such lackluster hollywood endeavors, the two hours or so of a movie couldn't compare with the quality characterisation and narrative development that a whole television season provides. I remembered this article, because I wholeheartedly agree.
I honestly don't think that RPGs are all that ephemeral. I know that the Double Cross is a site I visit as often as any more conventional fanfic archive, and when I want a dose of Lucius, my favorite aristocratic sociopath, I visit Xandria's brilliant
A livejournal-based RPG doesn't present fiction in a traditional narrative, but I think that's part of the appeal. Certainly there is a lot of short term pay out, and going through back posts requires effort, but with good players it's definitely worth it. The fractured narrative and the depth of characterisation -- the very post-modernity of the format -- I find fascinating and deeply satisfying to read.
I enjoyed 'Primer to the Dark Arts' and I adore the 'Beg Me For It' series, but I've already returned to your hp_dungeon posts more times than I ever will with these stories even though I like them very much and will probably re-read them in the future.
Your characterisation of Percy in hp_dungeons is outstanding. The 'Beg Me For It' Series has moments of truly excellent characterisation, but dungeons' Percy exceeds even this previous highpoint. Whether you think that your writing is better or worse from this experience, I definitely find it more sophisticated.
no subject
Date: 2003-11-14 12:26 am (UTC)But I digress. How can I digress from nothing, you ask? I refer you back to the points made about my brain in the last paragraph.
Where was I? Oh, yes. I'm replying here because, in the absence of any ability to express my own thoughts, I'm going to simply agree whole-heartedly with
I can see how there would be downsides to writing for The Dungeons but for me, as a reader, there are so many more good points. The interactivity of the project creates a dynamic structure that can't be replicated or imitated in linear story. The backstories contrast with the snippets of journal entries and owl posts to flesh out each character in several dimensions, allowing them to show a more fundamentally fractal and human face.
As a writer, I'm crap. My writing itself is fine but I'm completely incapable of finishing a story, which is why I don't inflict any WIPs on my fandoms. The Dungeons has given me an unbelievable opportunity to interact with many outstanding writers and to be creative without the pressure of a structured plot to follow.
I simply adore The Dungeons and am throughly thankful to all of the contributors for making it such a fantastic experience.
(Oh, look. I had something of my own to say after all.) *grins*
no subject
Date: 2003-11-13 02:24 pm (UTC)While it certainly is addictive and a huge time-eater. I've found that I feel a bit queasy after reading a bit too much of it. Kinda like having too much really good chocolate, you know?
- It develops some bad writing habits, dependency, and breaks down story structure as the story is pulled between several people.
This is quite true. There is one characterization in particular that drives me up the wall (not Percy). Entries that belie the character's intelligence and many contradictions.
- It's ephemeral. Once you write it, it's gone. People don't look back and read it later.
I've reread a few things here and there. Will I a year from now? Doubtful...I'll be too busy rereading Primer.
Are you waiting for stories that don't seem to be coming?
Besides Snape Manor, right? ;) Actually, when I first read a little about each character...I was hoping to see more of Hermoine's story of her reluctance to to marry Ron and put her career on the back burner...feeling pressured by Molly, et al...but that seemed to be abandoned for the slash.
Are your RPG experiences similar? Different?
I've only read/observed other RPGs, but from that perspective...I'd have to agree with you. I do enjoy Percy a great deal. But I miss seeing your fic here.
no subject
Date: 2003-11-14 11:57 am (UTC)I started in online roleplying with Moo's, moved into Play by email, and lately have been dabbling in the Journal format games.
All the good points you mentioned- The fresh insight, the interactivity, the pressure to produce, are things I love about the format. I am a terrible procrastinator, and the RPG format pulls things out of me when I am stalled, and when I'm in a creative mood, well, getting near immediate feedback is like a drug.
The best RPG's are addicting.
The Ephemeral nature concerns me too. I have some lovely pieces I have done in PBEmail games that stand alone nicely as ficlets. But I have few from journal based games. The format just doesn't lend itself to reading as a stand alone story.
That is another problem with going back and reading journal based stories- Livejournal 'friends' pages only go back a few weeks. (As best I can tell.) Get past that date, and you are left looking through individual journals, and can't see how each entry builds on the others entered chronologically around it without great difficulty. Pain in the butt.
Writing with others can make you dependant. I have some ideas filed away, but I have a lot of trouble making them into something without the input and feedback of others. Sometimes this is because of a feeling that a certain character belongs to another person, and even though a story is not the game, the ettiquitte of "No puppeting other peoples characters" can be very hard to break once it becomes habit. Likewise, after roleplaying with one group for a long time, certain peoples characterizations can become so ingrained in your mind that breaking free of them can be very very hard. Writing anything of your own while under the influence of a RPG is very very difficult- you have to get out of the 'mood' of the RPG,a nd then there is that siren song of "What has somebody posted now.." calling softly in your ear.
Very difficult.
I love the kick in the pants that roleplaying gives to my creativity, but I have to admit it has tied my hands in some very distressing ways at the very same time. I'm not sure crippled is the right word, but it is the best analogy I have seen so far.