Why do people hate BNFs?

[icarus]

I really don't understand this BNF phenomenon. I just don't get it.

I don't see why people go "whee, Icarus!" when they find out their review or whatever is from me. I understand "whee, Stories!" -- or -- "whee, Icarus' Stories!" That makes sense to me, because this is all about the stories, all about the fun of writing. If you've liked something I wrote in the past, there's good chance you'll like the next one. I'm the same way about "whee, Candy!"

But I don't know why the focus shifts from the story to the person. What the hell...?

Comments

[kijikun.livejournal.com]

It becuase they like your work and think your a wonderful writer. So having you like their work is a bit like getting candy. (I've whee'd myself when someone I admire reviews my work)

[ursulakohl.livejournal.com]

I only started reading your journal because you reviewed my Terence/ Percy. Maybe I'm a BNF ;)

[thereallyle.livejournal.com]

Because it's the mastermind behind the amazing stories.

[nataliadarimini.livejournal.com]

The review "whee" is because we've found out that the person who likes the story isn't a random fourteen-year-old girl (though heaven knows I do like fourteen-year-old girls), but someone who knows about writing and isn't just fangirling. Though heaven knows there's nothing wrong with fangirling. :D When a v.good writer says it's nice, you know that they're speaking with some degree of discrimination. Like when one of the Art History teachers liked my painting today, it was better for my ego than when my classmate did. Though heaven knows I didn't fangirl the man. :)

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I've done it, too. But it's grown really weird lately. I still have to deal that the HP reader that's in my class and, ugh.

Icarus

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Thank god. *glomps non-BNF fetishist/hater.*

And I started reading your fics because you wrote Terence/Percy. Damned good story, by the way. It's being rec'd on the links page of the Ficathon Website.

Icarus

[anjenue.livejournal.com]

Hee, I usually don't fangirl, but sometimes I'm in an odd mood and I go "LOOK! Someone I've READ has READ ME BACK! WOO!"

but I'm odd. e_e

[ursulakohl.livejournal.com]

Really? Nifty! (I guess it makes sense, since after writing Percy once I decided I wanted more of him . . .)

[tehlils.livejournal.com]

I really don't understand this BNF phenomenon. I just don't get it.
Me either. Never have, and don't think I ever will. Essentially what makes a person a "BNF" is visibility. There are many great writers who don't have as much visibility as those that have been deemed a "BNF". Yes, I won't deny that quality of work can affect a person being deemed as such, just that visibility is about 2/3 of what makes a person a "BNF".

As for people disliking "BNF"s... well, sometimes it is assumed that because one is well known, they become a snob. This might be the case some of the time, but certainly not most. Fandom Politics have always bothered me, and there's moments that I wish I was back in lurker status. But then at the same time I wouldn't trade the friendships I've made or the experiences I've had.

For the "Whee" factor... I think we just all like recieving feedback from people we read. It makes things feel less one sided. And I go "Wheee! So-and-so!" No matter who it is. It's the whole "Whee! Candy!" thing.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Thank goodness, someone else doesn't get this.

Sometimes it is assumed that because one is well known, they become a snob. This might be the case some of the time, but certainly not most.

*nods* It's not quite fair, but if people have no contact with someone I guess it's pretty easy to fill in the blanks.

Yeah... the visibility factor, that makes sense. It's true, I feel the same way when someone I know reviews me, that's true.

Icarus

[icarusinwax.livejournal.com]

I'm not really into the whole BNF phenomenon. When i first got into fandom i asked someone what a BNF meant, and when i heard the meaning i was like, "yuo've got to be kidding me." It just sounds like another whole societal structure in the internet, which is something i tihnk we get enough of in RL. Fine, i admit that some authors are profilic and have a flist the size of my waist, but that doesn't usually mean they deserve the status of "look but don't touch, s/he's a BNF." What i do understand is that those who are profilic or popular and have a massive flist, and the eventual effect they give off to snot nosed fandomers who friend them; for me, personally, it's more of a "oh well, you have 600 friends but you still went out and reviwed/talked to me/replied to my comment "etc. Then agian, isn't it everyone's duty to do that?

it's early, im rambling; sorry :s

[tehlils.livejournal.com]

Even when you have contact with someone, you can fill in the blanks. It's just a matter of realizing that you can't judge a book by its cover. Unless you have extended one on one out of the public eye interaction with someone, you can't tell what they're really like. And even then you can't always tell. People are tricksey, even when they don't intend to be.

The same goes with anything. Brand name sell because of their visibility more than their quality. If a brand name, big product sold based off of quality alone. Well there would be plenty of goods that wouldn't be brand names. We live in an advertisement heavy world where everything revolves around visibility.

[jaig.livejournal.com]

It's called this.

Fic: *runs really fast*
Reputation: *takes bus*

The name just jumps out so much more, because it's- known.

[switchknife.livejournal.com]

Oh my God, exactly. I just don't get it.

[maelwaedd.livejournal.com]

I get squee every time I get a review. If you reviewed one of mine, I'd be over the moon. But... no offense, but it'd be cause another person reviewed. Not that you're not special, of course.

It's just that... well, I appear to be digging my feet further into my mouth. I hope I'm making sense, rather than just sounding tactless.

[and-love.livejournal.com]

i dunno even what bnf stands for.

so.

im just here cause i love you <3

[cheshyre]

You've got good taste.
It's not "you're a BNF, therefore your recs mean more"; it's "you've got a good track record for finding the cream of the crop.
That's not necessarily a BNF thing; wrt movie reviews, I prefer Roger Ebert's opinions to Leonard Maltin's because I agree w/Ebert more often and thus his recs are more likely to appeal to me. Same holds true w/rec sites.
Also, because your journal has a larger audience than certain others, getting a rec from you would mean attracting a wider audience to the fic.

[It's way too early and I got too little sleep and I should be going around the house doing last minute things before leaving on vacation instead of reading LJ; I'm not sure if I'm writing at all clearly or this is making sense outside my head.]

[webbapettigrew.livejournal.com]

I don't see why people go "whee, Icarus!" when they find out their review or whatever is from me.

Take that as a compliment. That just means you're well-known and a respected author. That fact that you took the time to read someone's work and were moved enough to write an opinion is sort of like an...honor to the writer. Because they respect your work, they respect your opinion.

I admit that while I love all the reviews I get, when I get one from someone whose work I am totally in love with writes me a review, I'm very excited about it.

[cara-chapel.livejournal.com]

IMNSHO, BNF is as BNF does.

It's interesting how people have come to define BNF these days. Sometimes the label gets applied to anyone who is a good author or who posts a lot to a mailing list, etc. However, I don't fel this is really an appropriate application of the label.

To be a "real" BNF, a person has to be very widely known. I've seen communities, such as the mainstream sci-fi community, that wouldn't call someone a BNF unless they'd been around for decades and done con committee work and won tons of awards and were known by just about everyone across a whole bunch of different fandoms-- and not media, but print fandoms. All of which the BNF has been active in for years. Etc. In slash, we don't apply it that way.

I think each fannish community applies it differently. But the more widely you're known and the longer you've been around, the more of a "real" BNF you are.

Another thing that often happens connected with the BNF syndrome is the BNF cultivating a bad attitude. I have a cynical feeling about "BNF" people; the ones who I tend to call BNFs are the ones who trumpet their own raving good review press, assemble a gang of subservient and/or defensive minions, and then more or less attempt to exert control over their fandoms with an iron fist, demanding praise and passing down the law of what's acceptable or not in writing/behavior/discussion, and exerting automatic "Crush the newbie/nonconformist/threatening new author and whip them into line!" campaigns any time someone causes a ripple.

I think this is where the hate you mentioned comes from; it's easy to hate someone who takes up this attitude and approach to their popularity because if you do or say something they don't like, they and their minions come down on your neck with the Spiked Boot of Doom. I've had this done to me; I didn't care for it. I've left fandoms over it. It eliminates diversity and eventually kills fandoms. The two fandoms where it was done to me as a new author, interestingly enough, are now dead in the water; nobody writes good fic there anymore because new (and often the good ones, who tended to be controversial, by reason of trying new things) authors got run out of town really fast and the old people are bored/complacent. In one of the fandoms I left, the BNF in question later migrated on and found new fandoms to conquer. Bleah! Well, maybe the old fandom will revive eventually.

Anyway. I know whereof I speak, because I flirted with "BNF wannabe" syndrome in my first fandom, eventually realized I was disgusting even myself with my ego, and subsided into lurkerdom. I'm much happier and less in conflict with people now that I don't participate in mailing list cultures-- I just write my little things wherever I want and about whatever I like, enjoy a few close friends on chat, and read people's LJs, dropping the occasional comment. I like more people and I think I am better liked as a lurker. ;-D

[xenoface.livejournal.com]

Heh. I think it's because your very known. If you were to review my story my initial reaction would be: YAY! REVIEW!!!

then ...

Hey! it's Icarus! Cool!

and my reply will be ...

Thanks for the review! It made me happy! Someone actually read my fic! Weee!

err ... yeah. more or less, that would be my reaction. I'd freak out, though if a review turned up like this:

From: "bot@fanfiction.com" <bot@fanfiction.com>
Subject: [FanFiction.Net] Review Alert!


-------------------

Do not use the reply button to respond to the reviewer.

The reviewer's identity is displayed below.

-------------------

Twice Removed(my name in ff.net, -sam),

The following review has been submitted to: Kiss Mew Chapter: 1

From: Daniel Radcliffe

That was so good! I loved it! You rock! Marry me!

Heh.

-sam

[pxr5.livejournal.com]

Reflected glory, in some cases. I tend to think of BNF syndrome as similar to celebrity obsession ;-)

Sometimes people just want to have someone they can "look" up to.

In general (as per print fandoms), BNFs tend to be widely known and liked, so perhaps it's an egoboo to know that you've "made" it in a fandom ;-)

Regrettably (at least in my case), I've also tended to find that some BNF's go cliquish, and have a tendency to overstate their own contributions to a fandom at large, and that can get very wearying.

Of course, since I've not really associated with any HP fen in the same manner as other print fandoms (ie. I don't know any HP fen from the slash con circuit, or parties, or similar), I don't really know of any of the negative BNF set here.

I mean, yes, there are very popular people in this fandom (judging from size of flist entries), but so what? I haven't seen as much of the "if not for me, then this fandom wouldn't exist" kind of thing ;-)

I can say that "whee, Icarus" can be because you've intelligently posted about nonfannish material in the past that can be very interesting to read (for me, this is frequently the buddhist material), and that's enough for me to go "whee, Icarus" rather than "whee, Icarus's stories".

Of course, the fannish material certainly helps ;-)

[chasehunts.livejournal.com]

Good rundown on the "mainstream" BNF. I think people in LJ land don't get the "personal interaction" aspect of this; RL, that is, offline, the BNF "experience" can be - well, strong, lol. In a good or bad way, depending on the BNF and how 'big' the BNF is.

Sorry about your fandoms. Better luck with HP :)

Chase

[mad_maudlin]

This is just my random opinon, but...I think the HP fandom's mutated.

In the long wait for OotP, I think, the whole fandom got stuck in a holding pattern. We ran out of canon things to discuss; what we had was thoroughly picked over, and we had no idea when we'd be getting anything new. Therefore, I think, the focus of the fandom shifted slightly away from the books and onto itself...if that makes any sense. We had always been creating our own canon (fanon), but at some point it took of a position equal or superior to JKR's in people's minds.

So the BNFs are the creators of the fanon; Cassandra Claire is the requisite reference here, because while she didn't invent LeatherTrousers!Draco (as she will strenuously tell you) the DT made it into fanon. They're almost on level with JKR herself in the minds of many fans, and that's a phenomenon of questionable value. When so many people complained that OotP "read like fanfic," I didn't see it as an idictment of JKR's writing abilities; I saw it as evidence of our own perceptions of fanfic-as-fanon-as-canon.

Or maybe I'm insane. ::shrugs::

[absynthia.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm hoping it's because they really respect your work and love your writing style, so if you liked their writing also it was a big compliment to them. Some bnf's don't leave very much feedback also, so if you get a comment from them you might notice it and feel like it was something special -- an encouragement from someone you admire.

But in all reality, I think it's just human nature to make 'celebrities' in any community. Which means others will then try to emulate them or gain admittance into that group. Not everyone, by any means, but many. And so to some, getting one of these known anchors of the community in their flist or on their AIM list then becomes a status symbol, and somehow validates that they've arrived. :P This is the attitude I've noticed.

There is also a greater possibility of exposure if you're read and recced by someone whose journal is widely read. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing to be happy about. We all want people to read our stuff.

Why is everyone afraid to say these things? Some of it's ugly, but it's true.

[dkwilliams.livejournal.com]

Well, they might go "Whee, Icarus!" because they know and respect your writings. While every review is wonderful and precious, it is especially gratifying to get a nice review or comment from someone whose work you happen to admire. I know that when I'm writing a particular pairing, getting a comment from one of the top writers in that pairing always makes me squee a little, although I also love the comments from Betty-Newcomer.

As for BNFs - it's a bizarre phenomenon, for sure. And it's changed a lot. It used to be that the BNFs in a fandom were people who'd been there since its inception and everyone knew them, even if you didn't read that particular pairing. For example, in X-Files, a couple of the Slash BNFs were Torch (for M/K) and Xanthe (for M/Sk) - even though I didn't read M/K, I knew who Torch was. Nowadays, a person can be in a fandom for a couple months and they might be called a BNF based on their level of activity. And in a fandom like Harry Potter, we're so diversified that I didn't even know half of the BNFs listed in the recent HP Deathmatch thingie.

Another offshoot of the BNF phenomena is Self-Made BNFs. These are people who are proclaimed to be BNFs by themselves, who gather their little cliques and groupies and try to dominate a fandom - not through their writing or editing/research, but through their setting down of "rules" and "must dos". I don't consider these to be true BNFs. A true BNF doesn't even realize they are a BNF until someone else calls them that, and even then they are rather modest and self-effacing about the whole thing (although it's okay to privately pump your fist in the air and hollar "Wa-hoo! I made it! I'm a BNF!"). They also actively encourage other writers around them rather than stifle and suppress creativity, preferring to shine in the sky like one star among many, rather than shine like a diamond on a dungheap.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

That's true. I see how fanon become it's own little world after GoF.

I've also noticed it calcified around Goblet of Fire. There are relatively few fics that run with Harry's characterisation post-OotP. People are taking into account the new facts (or rebelling against them ;) and folding in the new characters. But the major changes, the softening of Snape's characterisation (he's less vicious and more broken), Harry's new aggressiveness, Ron's success outside of Harry's sphere are not being taken into consideration for many of the fics out there. It's as though GoF has become this Juggernaut that's unstoppable after two years of fanfic.

So your definition of BNF is someone who's shaped the writing of others in the fandom. That takes me off the list. None of my stuff's effected fanon. Beg Me For It created a temporary fad of Ron/Draco prison fics, but it's not fanon.

Why do they keep adding me to these BNF things? BNF Deathmatch, BeingBNF, BNFWatch, WatchTheIdiotBNFs, Whack-a-BNF, what have you. It's really thrown me for a loop. Why the extreme reactions? Either people are thrilled, or they're disproportionately nasty. I'm still dealing with this fanfic reader in class who's... just awful. We got along great until I told her I was Icarus. After shredding my work in peer-review, cutting down pretty much everything I said, I've been informed by her that her research paper is already drafted. Every opportunity she has to prove she's 'better' than me somehow, she pounces. She wasn't like that before. I'm not competing! I was just thrilled to meet another HP fan, and thrilled she'd read my stories. Every class I regret ever telling her I was Icarus.

I connect this with the experience of people squeeing and then people who are uncomfortable and others who just feel bad because they're trying to get their stories recognized, and to me it's all the same phenomena. Not a BNF? Good. But whatever the hell this is, I wish the focus would move back to the damned stories.

Icarus

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Also, because your journal has a larger audience than certain others, getting a rec from you would mean attracting a wider audience to the fic.

See now that's marketing, and it makes good sense to me. I'm happy to rec people's stories, and it makes me beam to find out that they've been read by a lot of people as a result. Part of why I'm posting merrycontrary's reviews of the Percy Ficathon stories is because I counted the number of names on my flist and I know they will get a broader reading if they're rec'd here.

I used think this 'BNF' thing was just name recognition, marketing. I was thrilled when I was included in a BNFdeathmatch. But then all this personal stuff cropped up and I'm just scratching my head.

"you've got a good track record for finding the cream of the crop."

Actually, most of my reading material comes from my flist. So, if people read my journal for good recs, then I'm reading their journals for good recs. It's rather circular, isn't it?

A lot of the good stuff comes from switchknife, some of the more fun stuff from snoopypez, the heavy and/or unusual stuff from ntamera, the Gen or plot-heavy stories from isiscolo and mark357. The specialized stuff comes from painless_j. Then I read pornish_pixies off and on (doesn't everybody?), and certain writers, hell, I'd read one of resonant8's grocery lists. Every now and then something will pop up out of the blue on someone's LJ that sounds interesting and I'll luck out.

Icarus

[goseaward.livejournal.com]

None of my stuff's effected fanon.

I'm not sure it has to be specific facts; I know for sure I've heard people say they write Draco and Ron differently because of Beg Me For It. Subtle changes are just as important to fanon as leather pants.

...ooh, I like that sentence.

For what it's worth, I don't care if a BNF reviews by fics, but I do care if someone I know whose writing I respect reviews them. While not all good writers are BNFs, almost all BNFs are good writers or skilled readers/interpreters, so there's a squee factor; but it's not limited to BNFs. It's inclusive of them, not exclusive to them.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Subtle changes are just as important to fanon as leather pants.

LOL! I want that on a t-shirt.

Actually, I think the big contribution of DT is the exploration of a minor character, Draco Malfoy. epicyclical created a compelling picture of an isolated, vain, obsessive, and complicated person. I read DV now because I'm hooked on him.

If people look at Ron/Draco differently because of Beg Me For It, then I'm really happy about that. I hadn't read any R/D fanfic before I wrote it, so of necessity it was a different take.

The squeeing leaves me bemused, pleased, embarrassed and slightly uncomfortable. The flip-side of competitiveness really bothers me, whether it's cut-downs, or people losing confidence because their stories have been ignored or they're just starting out. It's the later, the losing heart, that bothers me most.

Icarus

[srichard.livejournal.com]

Er - this is going to sound rude, for which I'm very sorry, because I hope you know that I admire both you and your writing.

People are sheep. Fans particularly are sheep. You are a sheep, and I am a sheep. We flock to the in communities, we write characters the same way in fads (see recent jump in alpha!Remus), we pick what kinds of weird/off-beat fics are cool and which are just disturbing based on what a BNF tells us, we squee when BNFs friend us. We want to be bigger sheep than we are, we want to be the rams, able to dominate the herd. We are thoroughly despicable, and in any decent civilization would be taken out into the desert and left to die.

Love ya!

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

*Icarus bursts out laughing.*

Baaaaaaah.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

*Icarus bursts out laughing.*

Baaaaaaah.

[mentalstaples.livejournal.com]

I would say "whee, Iscarus" but I would also say "whee, a good review!" or even "whee, a flame!". I rarely post stories but when I do, I like getting feedback. And feedback from someone cool is always nice.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

True. I'm wibbling about everything this week, aren't I?

Icarus

[mentalstaples.livejournal.com]

You seem very stressed. I hope you get um...how do you say it.....unstressed.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

So basically Harry Potter as a fandom is a bunch of isolated little ponds, and inside those little ponds are a few bigger fish that are called

BNF's

, but really they're BNF's.

This is starting to make a bit more sense.

See, it completely threw me for a loop when I was listed on that Deathmatch.

I've only been writing a little over a year.

I don't run an archive.

I've never been to Nimbus or any sort of convention.

I'm not in any cliques (unless you count RPGs).

Hell, I just learned what the letters stood for last fall. (I was embarrassed and didn't want to ask.)

All you can say is that I put out a lot of stories in a very short time (I counted and there are about 50, two novel-length, with another 40 drabbles), and I'm very active on LJ.

I think what's going on here is that the Deathmatch cast a very wide net, and it was LJ-centric. Then people have used that list for their other LJ BNF lists. Like getting your name stuck on a mailing list. Because outside of LJ, well, when I last posted a story to FA someone, "gosh, I'm glad you're still writing." ^.^

I know that when I'm writing a particular pairing, getting a comment from one of the top writers in that pairing always makes me squee a little, although I also love the comments from Betty-Newcomer.

I felt the same way. Heck, I poinged all around the room when Telanu reviewed Primer to the Dark Arts since her stories were the ones that converted me to Harry/Snape (well, Telanu, Cybele and Minx). So that I understand (odd as that 'gosh people read these things after all' feeling is).

It's the line where just liking the stories crosses into someone 'being a big name' and 'object to complain about' and all the emotional freight that goes with it that puzzles me.

I just had someone dislike me because she learned I was the same Icarus who wrote those stories... and she liked the stories. Now she's all competitive and... sigh. I didn't do anything wrong.

There are other situations where people felt badly because of friendslist sizes, or recs, or reviews, and there's this kind of 'grit-your-teeth' congratulations that makes me want to crawl under a rock.

When I was a kid and I knew the answers in class I used to pretend I didn't, because otherwise the other kids felt bad and threw up their hands "I can't do it" or assumed I was showing off. Now I'm in situations where just writing a bunch of fun stories disheartens people. What fun is that?

Icarus

[dkwilliams.livejournal.com]

See, it completely threw me for a loop when I was listed on that Deathmatch...Hell, I just learned what the letters stood for last fall. (I was embarrassed and didn't want to ask.)

*G* Know that feeling. Someone called me a BNF in Highlander fandom, and I had to email them back to ask if I'd just been insulted or not. And I *so* did not get that, because I do not consider myself a BNF in any fandom. I've only written 2 or 3 stories in Highlander, and have only been there a couple years - not like people like MacGeorge who have been in Highlander forever and produce these amazingly researched stories. Nor in X-Files, where I came from before Highlander, because the BNFs were people who were Zined and had written these amazing arc stories, like Torch and Xanthe. Certainly not in HP where I only write in a couple pairings in very isolated ponds, not on FF.net or FA or any of those places. BNFs should be people like Telanu, and Sushi, and McKay, all of whom write amazing stories that make me want to laugh and cry.

It's not necessarily the quantity of work that should make a BNF - it's the contribution that their work has made to the fandom. BNFs should be like signposts along the way for the rest of us, standards of excellence in story-telling that we want to aspire to, or people who selflessly devote their time, energy, and money to running conventions or archives. It's the people that without whom, fandom would be much poorer.

But then, that's just my opinion

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

*nods*

I think Primer to the Dark Arts was popular, but not of any great impact, it was very much influenced by Telanu, Rushlight and Cybele. I don't see its themes picked up and carried elsewhere. The Ron/Draco Beg Me For It is a different situation. I saw a spate of Ron/Draco prison fics just after it came out and I thought that was the extent of it. But I'm starting to hear back that that story had more an impact than I knew. A couple months ago I heard from someone that they didn't include it on a rec list because it was just a given.

I think it was an infusion of fresh blood in the pairing. It makes a case for writing a pairing before you've read any fanfic about them, so what you come up with is new.

Oh. Now that's interesting. What I've just described is fanfic that borders on original fiction. epicyclical took a minor character and built something new. It's not new now, but it was. Telanu did the same.

That's what makes the impact, isn't it? Because there are a lot of good stories, but relatively few 'fresh' ones.

Icarus

[dkwilliams.livejournal.com]

Keep in mind that the following is my point of view only - different people may (and do) have different ideas on what is a BNF.

Yeah, I think that a story that impacts fandom in a big way can be part of what makes a BNF, but not entirely. What if a writer pops into a fandom, writes a big, significant story, and then pops back out to never write there again? Unless they are a writer who has done that across a lot of fandoms and, in doing so, has made a significant impact on fandom, I wouldn't call them a BNF. I'd call them a great writer, but not a BNF. Or what if they are a new writer to a fandom? An example could be "Dark Chocolate" by LadyFlowerDi. It's a good story, it stood the HP/SS section of fandom on its ears - it upset me (and others) in a way that hasn't been done since Cybele's IYAP. Does that make her a BNF? No, I don't think so. In my opinion, it makes her a good writer, a significant, up-and-coming writer in the fandom, and it will depend on her body of work and future involvement in the fandom whether she becomes a BNF. For now, she's a Writer With Followers or Significant Author (hey, we could come up with more acronyms people don't understand!).

In your case, I think you've become a BNF, not just for your writing which is good and prolific, but because of your active participation in fandom. You read and rec, you have discussions like this in your LJ, you encourage others to write. Those things are all very important in keeping a fandom alive and encouraging it to grow.

However, I personally think that being thought of as a good (or great) writer is more important than being thought of as a BNF. Being a BNF is often like being a celebrity - people notice you now and it's cool, but what about years from now when (if) you're no longer active in the fandom or a bigger, shinier BNF comes along? Whereas if you are a good writer, you'll endure as long as there are story archives and rec lists.

[dkwilliams.livejournal.com]

In general (as per print fandoms), BNFs tend to be widely known and liked, so perhaps it's an egoboo to know that you've "made" it in a fandom. Regrettably (at least in my case), I've also tended to find that some BNF's go cliquish, and have a tendency to overstate their own contributions to a fandom at large, and that can get very wearying.

(nodding head) Exactly. There are some BNFs who are enduring and will be considered significant to the fandom, even when they're no longer active in it. And then there are the momentary-BNFs, who sometimes think they're more important than they are. It's like the difference in the stars of yesterday and the celebrities of today. Very few people would say "Who?" when you mentioned Katharine Hepburn or Cary Grant or Madonna - they are remembered for their body of work over their lifetime. However, who remembers the name of the girl on the first "Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire" show? For awhile, she was everywhere, on the talk shows, celebrity gossip, etc., extending her 15 minutes of fame. Now, I doubt many people remember her name, much less care what she is doing.

Switch it over to fandom and BNFs. Don't get me wrong - being a BNF could be fun, and everyone loves getting attention from others - we wouldn't be human if we didn't. I think the problem comes - and this is what gives BNFs a bad name in some circles - when the glow starts to wear off. Instead of graciously allowing the spotlight to move on - which I think the majority of BNFs do - it's a big temptation to chase that spotlight, like the celebrities who always seem to be in the news for doing something stupid and attention-getting. So some BNFs try to control the fandom they're in (or the fandom-pool, if it's a big splintered fandom) by laying down Intractable Rules for writing or tearing down new writers, while others try to churn out more attention-getting stories - not for the story itself, but for the attention. Little surprise that these stories are mediocre at best, because they're not written to tell something that the writer needs to tell, but written to grab that spotlight back. And because they've gathered a little clique that is always praising them and their work, others are too afraid to speak up and say "Um, Emperor, no offense, but you're not wearing any knickers." Fortunately, I think that the majority of BNFs belong to the gracious-star category, but it's the small number in the Brat-pack-BNF group that can sour people to the whole BNF phenomena.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

This is helpful. I think switchknife is a BNF by that measure, because she's done a lot to recomend and support other writers, research good fics and run an archive of recs for others. It's not for her obviously, because she's already read the stories.

So this is the glue that holds the fandom together. People like her or heidi8 take time out from their own longer stories to do this.

But that definition doesn't fit me. Not unless Percy Weasley has a fandom (there isn't one that I've noticed). If Percy has a fandom, okay, I'll wave the flag.

I have essays on writing that I think are worthwhile, but outside of the recent Percy Ficathon, I don't do many recs. This journal's mostly my writing.

The more I try to define this BNF thing, the more convinced I am that it's amorphous.

It has the good side of being high market recognition. That much everyone agrees on.

But for the most part it's not a nice thing to call someone.

It's an open invitation to be ripped by people who don't know you, have your stories shredded by people who hate that 'BNF thing,' whatever it is.

It dams up your creativity by making it less acceptable to take risks and put out crap. :)

It makes people who like you or your stories act a little stiff and strange when you bump into them in chat.

It creates jealousy and competitiveness. It's devisive.

Once that label is applied, suddenly no one remembers the stories.

It becomes a label for a fandom super-ego. Or alter-ego.

It was fine until someone placed that label on me in that deathmatch. Then suddenly, because someone said it, things changed. It used to be that people just liked the stories, "hey, another one from Icarus." Entertainment.

Now this 'label,' this concept, has been applied and it's become an obstacle. It puts up a wall between me and others. It makes me feel like, well, people are watching now, I'd better make this story good.

There's also the very real danger of falling for this bullshit. Suddenly defining yourself by this vague title. Taking fandom (as opposed to writing) seriously. Worse yet, taking myself seriously. That's very dangerous. Talk about a fragile platform for your self worth. Man. You'd have to collect some sycophants to keep it going.

That's rather sad.

After reading everything people have said, I've have my own definition of BNF:

It's fucking politics.

*Heavy sigh.* So what do I do?

I was so excited when I was added to the 'BNF' lists, because I perceived only the marketing end of it. I didn't see the political shit that I was in for.

There are people who go 'whee!', and I'd be a liar if I said that it has no impact.

There are people who do the opposite. In your posts here *snicker* you've basically all but said that I'm (at best) a mediocre writer. Erm. Ouch. But people react to the excessive praise and....

The natural, human thing to do is to gather your sycophants and only want to hear the extreme of praise. But I don't really buy it.

And that's still shifting the focus from the stories to the person anyway.

I have stories that are mediocre.
I have stories that really suck.
I have stories that are well-liked but have some fundamental flaws that I recognise, and I'm stunned that people like them regardless.
I have stories that are solid, good writing, that I wouldn't change. A few.
There are some where the writing, the imagery is what carries them.
There are some that the writing's just awful, but the plot grabs you.
I have some that are OOC.
I have some where the structure is stable.
Others where the structure is all over the place.

Stories I can talk about. Since the BNF thing is not about writing, but just a perception -- *throws up hands.* It's a reality I have to understand and deal with, because it's changed the way people interact with me. I'm just trying to figure out why.

Icarus

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'm pretty well convinced after listening to all these takes on BNFs that there's actually a line between this BNF-concept, which is impossibly vague and just a public perception, and what people actually do.

You just have to write your stories, make your archives, write your essays, and try not to let all the cut-downs and hatred directed at this perception get to you, and try not to let ridiculous "shits gold" praise get to you either. :)

The only benefit in this perception is the marketing value. For that reason, one should probably keep the plates spinning. Though I thought about deleting this LJ for a while to focus on writing. Because that's what I care about.

All I was doing was actively marketing my stories, and ended up directing traffic to other people's stories while I was at it. But I have an advertising background. Without putting it out there, your story becomes the proverbial tree in the forest.

Though sometimes marketing is just happenstance. I'm thinking about the situation with The Courtship of Harry Potter and Primer to the Dark Arts.

It just so happened that when Primer was being published on the HarryXSnapeML, they had started a weekly chat. Primer was the only big fic that was coming out at the time. (I found this out from people who asked me to beta for them out of the blue. Huh?)

Then right around the time Courtship came out, just a few weeks later, the chat discussions had discontinued (there was something political or lack of time, I was never told the reason exactly). So people discussed Primer to death, but only discussed the first few chapters of Courtship. So it can be completely a matter of timing. Marketing, you keep communicating, keep the ball rolling, but sometimes it just drops in your lap.

Icarus

[dkwilliams.livejournal.com]

After reading everything people have said, I've have my own definition of BNF:

It's fucking politics.

*Heavy sigh.* So what do I do?

Yeah, it's politics. And being defined as a BNF can make people look at you differently, although it really shouldn't affect people who are genuine friends. They'll remember you when you were just an upstart newcomer. *G* If you continue acting the way that you always have, then people will quickly get over the whole "awe" thing - you'll only have to deal with newcomers looking at you that way, the same way you looked at Telanu or any of the others when you came to HP fandom.

In your posts here *snicker* you've basically all but said that I'm (at best) a mediocre writer. Erm. Ouch. But people react to the excessive praise and....

Me? (looking back at my posts) Er, I didn't think I'd said that at all. I think you're a good writer, although I haven't read all your stories because you write pairings I don't read. I think your writing gets better and better over time - the growth from the start to finish of "Primer to the Dark Arts" was incredible and a real delight both to witness and read. You've shown a willingness to take risks with stories and pairings that I heartily applaud. I also enjoy your essays because I think you have a good insight into writing and fandom. All of that together is what, in my opinion, puts you in the BNF group.

And don't worry about the whole BNF thing. Being a BNF is kinda cool - it means you've "arrived" in the eyes of some people, and that can make you feel warm fuzzies. Accept the limelight while it shines but don't let yourself get hooked on it, and continue to grow as a writer.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Don't let yourself get hooked on it

Yeah, that's the main danger. I should enjoy it, but instead I'm getting neurotic. :D

Me? (looking back at my posts) Er, I didn't think I'd said that at all.

Yeah, like I said, I'm getting neurotic. Not egotistical, more like 'holy shit, I can't live up to this.' So any criticism, vague hint of criticism, implied... well, you get the idea... just reinforces my underlying state of worry and nail-biting.

It bugs me that The Courtship of Harry Potter wasn't included in the Harry/Snape quiz that came out a while ago. It deserved to be there, was rec'd a lot, but didn't get the attention it deserved.

Courtship has a fascinating, well-researched and original concept that was believably carried out (and it's very rare for someone to be able to pull off cultural pedarasty). You captured a terrific Ron and a very subtle and intense relationship between Harry and Snape.

The slow build is what really made it work. The image of Snape's brilliantly conceived gestures, the pictures of Corfu, have stayed with me -- alongside the characterisation of Snape dragging his heels every inch of the way.

I remember thinking at the time that Courtship really needed to be pimped more. :D

Er. Speaking of pedarasty and such things.

Icarus

[dkwilliams.livejournal.com]

(shrugging) I didn't even hear about the quiz so it doesn't matter to me that it wasn't included. What's important to me is that the story turned out to be better than I had anticipated - it's the one in HP fandom that I'm most proud of. Also, I continue to get feedback from people who have seen it recced on lists, so that gives me warm fuzzies.

From personal experience, I can tell you that the best thing to do is relax and not worry about it. When I was in X-Files fandom, I started a series that rapidly developed a large following - and it literally panicked me. I would get the shakes before posting a chapter, worried that it wouldn't live up to the hype, and basically worried all the fun out of writing it. It wasn't the readers' fault - I just got too focused. I had to step back and do something completely different in another fandom to get some perspective on it, and it's only a couple years later that I'm ready to go back and finish it. If I hadn't let myself feel pressured, I wouldn't have needed to do that. Of course, I don't regret my fandom-wandering - I think I've learned a lot about myself and writing through my exploring.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Worried that it wouldn't live up to the hype, and basically worried all the fun out of writing it. It wasn't the readers' fault - I just got too focused.

God, that's exactly what's going on. Good advice, if easier said than done.

Icarus

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

IMHO, one person's BNF is another person's WTF.

(to use a few acronyms!)

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

You know you're a BNF when people go out of their way to give you shit. If you weren't stuck with it, they wouldn't bather.

Icarus