Why do people hate BNFs?

[icarus]

I really don't understand this BNF phenomenon. I just don't get it.

I don't see why people go "whee, Icarus!" when they find out their review or whatever is from me. I understand "whee, Stories!" -- or -- "whee, Icarus' Stories!" That makes sense to me, because this is all about the stories, all about the fun of writing. If you've liked something I wrote in the past, there's good chance you'll like the next one. I'm the same way about "whee, Candy!"

But I don't know why the focus shifts from the story to the person. What the hell...?

Comments

[dkwilliams.livejournal.com]

Well, they might go "Whee, Icarus!" because they know and respect your writings. While every review is wonderful and precious, it is especially gratifying to get a nice review or comment from someone whose work you happen to admire. I know that when I'm writing a particular pairing, getting a comment from one of the top writers in that pairing always makes me squee a little, although I also love the comments from Betty-Newcomer.

As for BNFs - it's a bizarre phenomenon, for sure. And it's changed a lot. It used to be that the BNFs in a fandom were people who'd been there since its inception and everyone knew them, even if you didn't read that particular pairing. For example, in X-Files, a couple of the Slash BNFs were Torch (for M/K) and Xanthe (for M/Sk) - even though I didn't read M/K, I knew who Torch was. Nowadays, a person can be in a fandom for a couple months and they might be called a BNF based on their level of activity. And in a fandom like Harry Potter, we're so diversified that I didn't even know half of the BNFs listed in the recent HP Deathmatch thingie.

Another offshoot of the BNF phenomena is Self-Made BNFs. These are people who are proclaimed to be BNFs by themselves, who gather their little cliques and groupies and try to dominate a fandom - not through their writing or editing/research, but through their setting down of "rules" and "must dos". I don't consider these to be true BNFs. A true BNF doesn't even realize they are a BNF until someone else calls them that, and even then they are rather modest and self-effacing about the whole thing (although it's okay to privately pump your fist in the air and hollar "Wa-hoo! I made it! I'm a BNF!"). They also actively encourage other writers around them rather than stifle and suppress creativity, preferring to shine in the sky like one star among many, rather than shine like a diamond on a dungheap.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

So basically Harry Potter as a fandom is a bunch of isolated little ponds, and inside those little ponds are a few bigger fish that are called

BNF's

, but really they're BNF's.

This is starting to make a bit more sense.

See, it completely threw me for a loop when I was listed on that Deathmatch.

I've only been writing a little over a year.

I don't run an archive.

I've never been to Nimbus or any sort of convention.

I'm not in any cliques (unless you count RPGs).

Hell, I just learned what the letters stood for last fall. (I was embarrassed and didn't want to ask.)

All you can say is that I put out a lot of stories in a very short time (I counted and there are about 50, two novel-length, with another 40 drabbles), and I'm very active on LJ.

I think what's going on here is that the Deathmatch cast a very wide net, and it was LJ-centric. Then people have used that list for their other LJ BNF lists. Like getting your name stuck on a mailing list. Because outside of LJ, well, when I last posted a story to FA someone, "gosh, I'm glad you're still writing." ^.^

I know that when I'm writing a particular pairing, getting a comment from one of the top writers in that pairing always makes me squee a little, although I also love the comments from Betty-Newcomer.

I felt the same way. Heck, I poinged all around the room when Telanu reviewed Primer to the Dark Arts since her stories were the ones that converted me to Harry/Snape (well, Telanu, Cybele and Minx). So that I understand (odd as that 'gosh people read these things after all' feeling is).

It's the line where just liking the stories crosses into someone 'being a big name' and 'object to complain about' and all the emotional freight that goes with it that puzzles me.

I just had someone dislike me because she learned I was the same Icarus who wrote those stories... and she liked the stories. Now she's all competitive and... sigh. I didn't do anything wrong.

There are other situations where people felt badly because of friendslist sizes, or recs, or reviews, and there's this kind of 'grit-your-teeth' congratulations that makes me want to crawl under a rock.

When I was a kid and I knew the answers in class I used to pretend I didn't, because otherwise the other kids felt bad and threw up their hands "I can't do it" or assumed I was showing off. Now I'm in situations where just writing a bunch of fun stories disheartens people. What fun is that?

Icarus

[dkwilliams.livejournal.com]

See, it completely threw me for a loop when I was listed on that Deathmatch...Hell, I just learned what the letters stood for last fall. (I was embarrassed and didn't want to ask.)

*G* Know that feeling. Someone called me a BNF in Highlander fandom, and I had to email them back to ask if I'd just been insulted or not. And I *so* did not get that, because I do not consider myself a BNF in any fandom. I've only written 2 or 3 stories in Highlander, and have only been there a couple years - not like people like MacGeorge who have been in Highlander forever and produce these amazingly researched stories. Nor in X-Files, where I came from before Highlander, because the BNFs were people who were Zined and had written these amazing arc stories, like Torch and Xanthe. Certainly not in HP where I only write in a couple pairings in very isolated ponds, not on FF.net or FA or any of those places. BNFs should be people like Telanu, and Sushi, and McKay, all of whom write amazing stories that make me want to laugh and cry.

It's not necessarily the quantity of work that should make a BNF - it's the contribution that their work has made to the fandom. BNFs should be like signposts along the way for the rest of us, standards of excellence in story-telling that we want to aspire to, or people who selflessly devote their time, energy, and money to running conventions or archives. It's the people that without whom, fandom would be much poorer.

But then, that's just my opinion

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

*nods*

I think Primer to the Dark Arts was popular, but not of any great impact, it was very much influenced by Telanu, Rushlight and Cybele. I don't see its themes picked up and carried elsewhere. The Ron/Draco Beg Me For It is a different situation. I saw a spate of Ron/Draco prison fics just after it came out and I thought that was the extent of it. But I'm starting to hear back that that story had more an impact than I knew. A couple months ago I heard from someone that they didn't include it on a rec list because it was just a given.

I think it was an infusion of fresh blood in the pairing. It makes a case for writing a pairing before you've read any fanfic about them, so what you come up with is new.

Oh. Now that's interesting. What I've just described is fanfic that borders on original fiction. epicyclical took a minor character and built something new. It's not new now, but it was. Telanu did the same.

That's what makes the impact, isn't it? Because there are a lot of good stories, but relatively few 'fresh' ones.

Icarus

[dkwilliams.livejournal.com]

Keep in mind that the following is my point of view only - different people may (and do) have different ideas on what is a BNF.

Yeah, I think that a story that impacts fandom in a big way can be part of what makes a BNF, but not entirely. What if a writer pops into a fandom, writes a big, significant story, and then pops back out to never write there again? Unless they are a writer who has done that across a lot of fandoms and, in doing so, has made a significant impact on fandom, I wouldn't call them a BNF. I'd call them a great writer, but not a BNF. Or what if they are a new writer to a fandom? An example could be "Dark Chocolate" by LadyFlowerDi. It's a good story, it stood the HP/SS section of fandom on its ears - it upset me (and others) in a way that hasn't been done since Cybele's IYAP. Does that make her a BNF? No, I don't think so. In my opinion, it makes her a good writer, a significant, up-and-coming writer in the fandom, and it will depend on her body of work and future involvement in the fandom whether she becomes a BNF. For now, she's a Writer With Followers or Significant Author (hey, we could come up with more acronyms people don't understand!).

In your case, I think you've become a BNF, not just for your writing which is good and prolific, but because of your active participation in fandom. You read and rec, you have discussions like this in your LJ, you encourage others to write. Those things are all very important in keeping a fandom alive and encouraging it to grow.

However, I personally think that being thought of as a good (or great) writer is more important than being thought of as a BNF. Being a BNF is often like being a celebrity - people notice you now and it's cool, but what about years from now when (if) you're no longer active in the fandom or a bigger, shinier BNF comes along? Whereas if you are a good writer, you'll endure as long as there are story archives and rec lists.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

This is helpful. I think switchknife is a BNF by that measure, because she's done a lot to recomend and support other writers, research good fics and run an archive of recs for others. It's not for her obviously, because she's already read the stories.

So this is the glue that holds the fandom together. People like her or heidi8 take time out from their own longer stories to do this.

But that definition doesn't fit me. Not unless Percy Weasley has a fandom (there isn't one that I've noticed). If Percy has a fandom, okay, I'll wave the flag.

I have essays on writing that I think are worthwhile, but outside of the recent Percy Ficathon, I don't do many recs. This journal's mostly my writing.

The more I try to define this BNF thing, the more convinced I am that it's amorphous.

It has the good side of being high market recognition. That much everyone agrees on.

But for the most part it's not a nice thing to call someone.

It's an open invitation to be ripped by people who don't know you, have your stories shredded by people who hate that 'BNF thing,' whatever it is.

It dams up your creativity by making it less acceptable to take risks and put out crap. :)

It makes people who like you or your stories act a little stiff and strange when you bump into them in chat.

It creates jealousy and competitiveness. It's devisive.

Once that label is applied, suddenly no one remembers the stories.

It becomes a label for a fandom super-ego. Or alter-ego.

It was fine until someone placed that label on me in that deathmatch. Then suddenly, because someone said it, things changed. It used to be that people just liked the stories, "hey, another one from Icarus." Entertainment.

Now this 'label,' this concept, has been applied and it's become an obstacle. It puts up a wall between me and others. It makes me feel like, well, people are watching now, I'd better make this story good.

There's also the very real danger of falling for this bullshit. Suddenly defining yourself by this vague title. Taking fandom (as opposed to writing) seriously. Worse yet, taking myself seriously. That's very dangerous. Talk about a fragile platform for your self worth. Man. You'd have to collect some sycophants to keep it going.

That's rather sad.

After reading everything people have said, I've have my own definition of BNF:

It's fucking politics.

*Heavy sigh.* So what do I do?

I was so excited when I was added to the 'BNF' lists, because I perceived only the marketing end of it. I didn't see the political shit that I was in for.

There are people who go 'whee!', and I'd be a liar if I said that it has no impact.

There are people who do the opposite. In your posts here *snicker* you've basically all but said that I'm (at best) a mediocre writer. Erm. Ouch. But people react to the excessive praise and....

The natural, human thing to do is to gather your sycophants and only want to hear the extreme of praise. But I don't really buy it.

And that's still shifting the focus from the stories to the person anyway.

I have stories that are mediocre.
I have stories that really suck.
I have stories that are well-liked but have some fundamental flaws that I recognise, and I'm stunned that people like them regardless.
I have stories that are solid, good writing, that I wouldn't change. A few.
There are some where the writing, the imagery is what carries them.
There are some that the writing's just awful, but the plot grabs you.
I have some that are OOC.
I have some where the structure is stable.
Others where the structure is all over the place.

Stories I can talk about. Since the BNF thing is not about writing, but just a perception -- *throws up hands.* It's a reality I have to understand and deal with, because it's changed the way people interact with me. I'm just trying to figure out why.

Icarus

[dkwilliams.livejournal.com]

After reading everything people have said, I've have my own definition of BNF:

It's fucking politics.

*Heavy sigh.* So what do I do?

Yeah, it's politics. And being defined as a BNF can make people look at you differently, although it really shouldn't affect people who are genuine friends. They'll remember you when you were just an upstart newcomer. *G* If you continue acting the way that you always have, then people will quickly get over the whole "awe" thing - you'll only have to deal with newcomers looking at you that way, the same way you looked at Telanu or any of the others when you came to HP fandom.

In your posts here *snicker* you've basically all but said that I'm (at best) a mediocre writer. Erm. Ouch. But people react to the excessive praise and....

Me? (looking back at my posts) Er, I didn't think I'd said that at all. I think you're a good writer, although I haven't read all your stories because you write pairings I don't read. I think your writing gets better and better over time - the growth from the start to finish of "Primer to the Dark Arts" was incredible and a real delight both to witness and read. You've shown a willingness to take risks with stories and pairings that I heartily applaud. I also enjoy your essays because I think you have a good insight into writing and fandom. All of that together is what, in my opinion, puts you in the BNF group.

And don't worry about the whole BNF thing. Being a BNF is kinda cool - it means you've "arrived" in the eyes of some people, and that can make you feel warm fuzzies. Accept the limelight while it shines but don't let yourself get hooked on it, and continue to grow as a writer.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Don't let yourself get hooked on it

Yeah, that's the main danger. I should enjoy it, but instead I'm getting neurotic. :D

Me? (looking back at my posts) Er, I didn't think I'd said that at all.

Yeah, like I said, I'm getting neurotic. Not egotistical, more like 'holy shit, I can't live up to this.' So any criticism, vague hint of criticism, implied... well, you get the idea... just reinforces my underlying state of worry and nail-biting.

It bugs me that The Courtship of Harry Potter wasn't included in the Harry/Snape quiz that came out a while ago. It deserved to be there, was rec'd a lot, but didn't get the attention it deserved.

Courtship has a fascinating, well-researched and original concept that was believably carried out (and it's very rare for someone to be able to pull off cultural pedarasty). You captured a terrific Ron and a very subtle and intense relationship between Harry and Snape.

The slow build is what really made it work. The image of Snape's brilliantly conceived gestures, the pictures of Corfu, have stayed with me -- alongside the characterisation of Snape dragging his heels every inch of the way.

I remember thinking at the time that Courtship really needed to be pimped more. :D

Er. Speaking of pedarasty and such things.

Icarus

[dkwilliams.livejournal.com]

(shrugging) I didn't even hear about the quiz so it doesn't matter to me that it wasn't included. What's important to me is that the story turned out to be better than I had anticipated - it's the one in HP fandom that I'm most proud of. Also, I continue to get feedback from people who have seen it recced on lists, so that gives me warm fuzzies.

From personal experience, I can tell you that the best thing to do is relax and not worry about it. When I was in X-Files fandom, I started a series that rapidly developed a large following - and it literally panicked me. I would get the shakes before posting a chapter, worried that it wouldn't live up to the hype, and basically worried all the fun out of writing it. It wasn't the readers' fault - I just got too focused. I had to step back and do something completely different in another fandom to get some perspective on it, and it's only a couple years later that I'm ready to go back and finish it. If I hadn't let myself feel pressured, I wouldn't have needed to do that. Of course, I don't regret my fandom-wandering - I think I've learned a lot about myself and writing through my exploring.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Worried that it wouldn't live up to the hype, and basically worried all the fun out of writing it. It wasn't the readers' fault - I just got too focused.

God, that's exactly what's going on. Good advice, if easier said than done.

Icarus

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

IMHO, one person's BNF is another person's WTF.

(to use a few acronyms!)

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

You know you're a BNF when people go out of their way to give you shit. If you weren't stuck with it, they wouldn't bather.

Icarus