Mary Sueage.
Sep. 11th, 2004 09:57 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
icarusYou know, 'Mary Sue' is fast becoming one of those overused terms, like 'Xerox' and 'Frisbee,' where the original meaning has nearly vanished. It seems that every time someone wants to criticise a character, they bring out the 'ol Mary Sue club.
It can mean everything from 'this character has magical powers that aren't believable' to 'I don't like this writer.' There are even those who dislike all original characters in fanfic and call them all Mary Sues. (Which makes no sense to me, because isn't every fictional character ever written an 'original character'?)
Do I want to rehabilitate the term, clarify the meaning?
No. That's a lost cause.
It's just time to be more specific. Why is the character a Mary Sue? What is it that bothers you? Try it on for size. Which critique is more effective -
This character is a Mary Sue.
Or: your super-human magical abilities are implausible.
This character is a Mary Sue.
Or: your plot is thin and not believable. Everything works out in your character's favour, all the time.
This character is a Mary Sue.
Or: your characterisation is flat. Your character has no apparent flaws to make them real and interesting.
This character is a Mary Sue.
Or: your character seems self-serving. They seem solely to serve your agenda, rather than being real and independently working within the story.
This character is a Mary Sue.
Or: your character seems to be a self-insert, with all the handsome men dropping at her feet.
All of these are Mary Sues. And not every Mary has all of these traits.
Yes, believe it or not, it is possible to have a self-insert in a story with an excellent plot, clear characterisation (and plenty of flaws), no super-human abilities in sight, and no agenda. You can also have an 'agenda character' in a story that is otherwise outstanding, where the obvious purpose of the character is to drive some political point.
And a Mary Sue isn't necessarily bad. There's even a very famous Mary Sue.
His name is Bond. James Bond.
Because of the other factors in the story, the zippy plot and winkingly fun Dr Evil bad guys, you're willing to suspend disbelief at this very obvious self-insert.
So be specific in your feedback. If something doesn't work in a story, tell the author exactly what it is. Calling the character a Mary Sue doesn't mean anything.
It can mean everything from 'this character has magical powers that aren't believable' to 'I don't like this writer.' There are even those who dislike all original characters in fanfic and call them all Mary Sues. (Which makes no sense to me, because isn't every fictional character ever written an 'original character'?)
Do I want to rehabilitate the term, clarify the meaning?
No. That's a lost cause.
It's just time to be more specific. Why is the character a Mary Sue? What is it that bothers you? Try it on for size. Which critique is more effective -
This character is a Mary Sue.
Or: your super-human magical abilities are implausible.
This character is a Mary Sue.
Or: your plot is thin and not believable. Everything works out in your character's favour, all the time.
This character is a Mary Sue.
Or: your characterisation is flat. Your character has no apparent flaws to make them real and interesting.
This character is a Mary Sue.
Or: your character seems self-serving. They seem solely to serve your agenda, rather than being real and independently working within the story.
This character is a Mary Sue.
Or: your character seems to be a self-insert, with all the handsome men dropping at her feet.
All of these are Mary Sues. And not every Mary has all of these traits.
Yes, believe it or not, it is possible to have a self-insert in a story with an excellent plot, clear characterisation (and plenty of flaws), no super-human abilities in sight, and no agenda. You can also have an 'agenda character' in a story that is otherwise outstanding, where the obvious purpose of the character is to drive some political point.
And a Mary Sue isn't necessarily bad. There's even a very famous Mary Sue.
His name is Bond. James Bond.
Because of the other factors in the story, the zippy plot and winkingly fun Dr Evil bad guys, you're willing to suspend disbelief at this very obvious self-insert.
So be specific in your feedback. If something doesn't work in a story, tell the author exactly what it is. Calling the character a Mary Sue doesn't mean anything.
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no subject
Date: 2004-09-11 11:17 am (UTC)Or they're so over the top and funny that you're busy laughing your guts out too care
And for all MS authors out there - too kind is not an acceptable character flaw on it's own! argh
I think a big part is the whole fanishness about fanfiction. A lot of journalists and cops write detective stories that sell, because people wanna read about the thief-and-police thing. But they don't take their detectives and put them in a Harry Potter story and expect me to care more about the detectives than about the original characters - which doesn't work since the original charas are pretty much the whole idea with fanfics. more of the same
no subject
Date: 2004-09-11 11:29 am (UTC)And for all MS authors out there - too kind is not an acceptable character flaw on it's own! argh
*Icarus bursts out laughing.* Oh god. That sounds like a resume.
expect me to care more about the detectives than about the original characters
You know, that's a really good point. Very often people put their self-insert front and center (aren't we all the center of the universe?). That just doesn't work in fanfic.
Huh. *Icarus nods.*
Icarus
no subject
Date: 2004-09-11 12:50 pm (UTC)Yes, I agree. The trick is to make it a good story - even really exciting real events can be boring to be told about if told in a bad way, which is why many history classes are awful
That sounds like a resume.
No, actually it was someones RPG application. Denied, thankfully
Very often people put their self-insert front and center. That just doesn't work in fanfic.
No, it rarely does. that's also why I'm hesitant to use the term Mary Sue on an character in an original story - for me, part of the Sueisness is the whole taking over the stage instead of the original characters.
Bond works in his setting and it is all supposed to be about him. A Bond-clone would work badly in a fanfic, because he is very nuch a 'center stage' character who would be OOC if put on the sidelines and dominate too much compared to the canon main charas.
This is also a problem with crosssovers. How do you merge two worlds faithfully and manage to satisfy fans of both series? Tricky
no subject
Date: 2004-09-11 10:48 pm (UTC)Except for the times when the "whole idea with fanfic" is to read and write about the *world.* Someone wrote an essay a couple years ago, I don't remember where I saw it, but the argument was that there are Character readers/writers, and World readers/writers. One is annoyed by OC-centric fic, the other isn't. Which I think comes down to a "know your audience" thing-- if you're going to explore the world with OCs, don't re-write HPPS, or the World readers are going to have your head on a plate.
no subject
Date: 2004-09-12 09:42 am (UTC)I think most of the slash readers, and pairing-centric readers, are primarily interested in the characters. Of course. But the Gen readers are more interested in exploring the edges of the Harry Potter world. Of course. I'm thinking particularly of
Icarus