Mary Sueage.

[icarus]

You know, 'Mary Sue' is fast becoming one of those overused terms, like 'Xerox' and 'Frisbee,' where the original meaning has nearly vanished. It seems that every time someone wants to criticise a character, they bring out the 'ol Mary Sue club.

It can mean everything from 'this character has magical powers that aren't believable' to 'I don't like this writer.' There are even those who dislike all original characters in fanfic and call them all Mary Sues. (Which makes no sense to me, because isn't every fictional character ever written an 'original character'?)

Do I want to rehabilitate the term, clarify the meaning?

No. That's a lost cause.

It's just time to be more specific. Why is the character a Mary Sue? What is it that bothers you? Try it on for size. Which critique is more effective -

This character is a Mary Sue.
Or: your super-human magical abilities are implausible.

This character is a Mary Sue.
Or: your plot is thin and not believable. Everything works out in your character's favour, all the time.

This character is a Mary Sue.
Or: your characterisation is flat. Your character has no apparent flaws to make them real and interesting.

This character is a Mary Sue.
Or: your character seems self-serving. They seem solely to serve your agenda, rather than being real and independently working within the story.

This character is a Mary Sue.
Or: your character seems to be a self-insert, with all the handsome men dropping at her feet.

All of these are Mary Sues. And not every Mary has all of these traits.

Yes, believe it or not, it is possible to have a self-insert in a story with an excellent plot, clear characterisation (and plenty of flaws), no super-human abilities in sight, and no agenda. You can also have an 'agenda character' in a story that is otherwise outstanding, where the obvious purpose of the character is to drive some political point.

And a Mary Sue isn't necessarily bad. There's even a very famous Mary Sue.

His name is Bond. James Bond.

Because of the other factors in the story, the zippy plot and winkingly fun Dr Evil bad guys, you're willing to suspend disbelief at this very obvious self-insert.

So be specific in your feedback. If something doesn't work in a story, tell the author exactly what it is. Calling the character a Mary Sue doesn't mean anything.

Comments

[dancing-moon.livejournal.com]

I think one of the tricks of good writing is to have a whole slew of self-inserts without anyone notices because they are really self-inserts, not abstract ideals of how you'd like to be. Your snotty self, your happy self, your self on drugs could all make good charas... if you can acknowledge your true faults and strenghts.
Or they're so over the top and funny that you're busy laughing your guts out too care

And for all MS authors out there - too kind is not an acceptable character flaw on it's own! argh

I think a big part is the whole fanishness about fanfiction. A lot of journalists and cops write detective stories that sell, because people wanna read about the thief-and-police thing. But they don't take their detectives and put them in a Harry Potter story and expect me to care more about the detectives than about the original characters - which doesn't work since the original charas are pretty much the whole idea with fanfics. more of the same

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Everything you write is drawn from your experience I think. My character niko_molokov (who's yet to be called a Gary Stu so far) is drawn from my worst enemy in high school, a complete asshole that I somehow respected, and my ex-boyfriend (we did not part on good terms). This morphed into a character that I somehow like, lord knows how.

And for all MS authors out there - too kind is not an acceptable character flaw on it's own! argh

*Icarus bursts out laughing.* Oh god. That sounds like a resume.

expect me to care more about the detectives than about the original characters

You know, that's a really good point. Very often people put their self-insert front and center (aren't we all the center of the universe?). That just doesn't work in fanfic.

Huh. *Icarus nods.*

Icarus

[dancing-moon.livejournal.com]

Everything you write is drawn from your experience I think

Yes, I agree. The trick is to make it a good story - even really exciting real events can be boring to be told about if told in a bad way, which is why many history classes are awful

That sounds like a resume.

No, actually it was someones RPG application. Denied, thankfully

Very often people put their self-insert front and center. That just doesn't work in fanfic.

No, it rarely does. that's also why I'm hesitant to use the term Mary Sue on an character in an original story - for me, part of the Sueisness is the whole taking over the stage instead of the original characters.

Bond works in his setting and it is all supposed to be about him. A Bond-clone would work badly in a fanfic, because he is very nuch a 'center stage' character who would be OOC if put on the sidelines and dominate too much compared to the canon main charas.

This is also a problem with crosssovers. How do you merge two worlds faithfully and manage to satisfy fans of both series? Tricky

[rainfallsautumn.livejournal.com]

But they don't take their detectives and put them in a Harry Potter story and expect me to care more about the detectives than about the original characters - which doesn't work since the original charas are pretty much the whole idea with fanfics.

Except for the times when the "whole idea with fanfic" is to read and write about the *world.* Someone wrote an essay a couple years ago, I don't remember where I saw it, but the argument was that there are Character readers/writers, and World readers/writers. One is annoyed by OC-centric fic, the other isn't. Which I think comes down to a "know your audience" thing-- if you're going to explore the world with OCs, don't re-write HPPS, or the World readers are going to have your head on a plate.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting idea. I think you just defined the difference between pairing-centric readers and Gen readers.

I think most of the slash readers, and pairing-centric readers, are primarily interested in the characters. Of course. But the Gen readers are more interested in exploring the edges of the Harry Potter world. Of course. I'm thinking particularly of loupnoir's Durmstrang Chronicles (http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Loup_Noir/), which is entirely OCs.

Icarus

[skuf.livejournal.com]

I can be quick to barf "Mary Sue" at many of the fic summaries I see at ff.net - but I agree it's becoming very popular to denounce practically all OCs as Mary Sues.

There's even a very famous Mary Sue. His name is Bond. James Bond.

Actually he's a Marty Stu (which I suspect you know). And Bond might be more famous, but Auel has sold more books than Fleming: Ayla is so my favorite Mary Sue, *g*!

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

The term is too... blanket. It covers too many different things to be actually useful. This came out of a conversation with a friend last night where she called a character a Mary Sue, and I thought, no... well... yes, sort of. The character was created for the purposes of an agenda, but doesn't have all the faults of a Mary Sue.

Actually he's a Marty Stu (which I suspect you know).

Yeah, I was wondering if I needed to throw that in. But I thought the term was Gary Stu? ;)

Icarus

[skuf.livejournal.com]

It covers too many different things to be actually useful
I still think it's a very useful term to point out to new authors what to avoid. It's just become too popular - all OCs are in danger of being called Mary Sues.

Ok, I give you Gary Stu - it's certainly the more used term of the two when you google it. But I like how HP fandom has its own little "Harry Sue", although I haven't really seen too many of him (apart from that one fic...)

[dancing-moon.livejournal.com]

Lemme guess - his name is Ash?

[skuf.livejournal.com]

How did you know, *g* ;o)

[ellensmithee.livejournal.com]

It's both - Marty Stu and Gary Stu.

[ellensmithee.livejournal.com]

Oh, and Marty Sam.

[ellensmithee.livejournal.com]

The latest argument seems to be that you can't just tell people not to read your fics or to just delete your fics anymore if they don't like them, because omg that means you're a Mary Sue writer and you've automatically lost the argument - WTF???

When you get down to it, every hero/heroine in literature, film, and TV is a Mary Sue. DEAL.

OK, my rant is over. ;-)

[rfachir.livejournal.com]

I also like the argument that the Trio is a composite S(t)u(e). Heaven forbid friends have complimentary strengths and weaknesses.

I love a well-written Sue. Bond and Araminta Malfoy-Potter are the funniest creatures ever to grace the page.

[adred.livejournal.com]

Yes, whereas I think the concept of MS/GS is a useful one, I think it can lead to lazy reviewing.
I don't like OCs as a general rule but I'm a canon purist to a large degree, so my hackles go up automatically and often I don't give them a fair chance.
I was once accused of MS-dom by a beta. It still mystifies me as the evidence for her so-called MS-ness was in canon and she was OBVIOUSLY mentally unstable.
Boy, I can bear a grudge.
The Harry-Sue-ness, I get that. Harry actually bored me up until OotP.

[adred.livejournal.com]

and she was OBVIOUSLY mentally unstable
Er, my character, not the beta. Sorry.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

You know, I'm sort of relieved at that. Though I did have psychopath beta once. I ran into her, much later, and she was being hauled in by a Yahoo Group mod for threatening people.

Felt a little better after that, I did.


Icarus

[delacey.livejournal.com]

*here from the daily snitch*

Mary Sue, of itsself *is* a pretty blanket term, but I know what you're talking about. I had a fic out (it's since been removed for revamping) that had an original character, who was NOTHING like me. Yes, every man fell at her feet, madly in love. But there was a REASON for that (she'd cast a charm on herself to make it that way) and it was a plot point. Igot a coupla flames for it, "That is SUCH an over done Mary Sue!!" "Why did you make it so that everyone fell in love with you?? This sucks! Didn't anyone tell you that Mary Sues are a bad thing?" and so on. The problem with that was that the whole story had been written and posted by that point, and the plot point had been revealed (not going to share why, since the story's almost ready to be re-released and I don't want to ruin it for anyone who may wind up reading it somewhere). Anyway, the character WASN'T a Mary Sue, she just happened to use a characteristic of for a specific plot purpose. It irked me to no end that people thought immediately that she was. That's part of the reason the story is being revamped.

Of course, there ARE fics of mine that have every right to be called a Mary Sue. Hell, I say they are in the header, and they are almost ALWAYS there to poke fun at myself. Much as Scribe's Proverb Series (http://www.scribescribbles.com) pokes fun at Mary Sues in general, and her own in particular. However, those are intentional, and you're really reading them at your own risk.

Anyway, since I think i've gotten off the topic a bit (sorry), I agree with you that the name Mary Sue has gotten to be over used and to mean very little of what it's actually *supposed* to mean anymore. I don't know why this has happened, except for reasonably uninformed fic readers are using phrases that they don't know what they mean just because they've seen other people use them and they think that they know what they mean. :P I'm tempted to set up a website just to help people figure out what terms mean, both in the HP fandom and in others.

Hugs,
TW

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

That's why it's being abused, I think. Because it is a blanket term: it covers so many things, that it's handy. But it's grown to be just an insult and it can't be used for concrit, really.

Icarus

[delacey.livejournal.com]

You know, you're probably right. Blanket terms can cause so much damage to things, from fanfiction to sports. *sigh* it's depressing, really, when you come down to it. whatever the term may be may start out as something completely valid and descriptive, but can degenerate into a blanket term that covers things that had almost to relation to the original term, and then even further into an insult.

But, look at the world today, and tell me it's surprising that things like that happen. :P

Hugs,
TW

[ozmas-mirror.livejournal.com]

Here via Daily Snith. Hi.

I agree heartily that the term Mary Sue is thrown about much too casually (and personally, I think with way more vitriol than is actually deserved). I hear the term Mary Sue bandied about so often I've almost gotten to the point where I want to go, "Whoo! Mary Sue rocks! Fight the power!"

Well, no. But I really do roll my eyes heartily every time I hear "____'s such a Mary Sue." I've seen fanfic characters called it, book characters, movie characters, and on two memorable occasions real people being derided as "Mary Sues". It usually makes me go, "Argh" and why, because an explanation is never given. It's rather frustrating.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I think with way more vitriol than is actually deserved

That's the worst part. It's just an insult and as such, no longer concrit. I'd agree with using the term "Mary Sue" and then explaining what's Mary Sue-ish. But it's just too broad.

real people being derided as "Mary Sues"

Now this is what we call "unclear on the concept." *laughs*

Icarus

[chrysantza.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything you have said. I've been saying much the same for years. "So-and-So is a Mary Sue" has devolved to the level as "Well, your MOMMA!" and is now useless as a criticism because it has been so overused.

I've seen characters called Mary Sues because the critic doesn't like the writer, doesn't like the story or the ships, et cetera. I've even heard Tonks called a Mary Sue because she's a newly introduced, young, female character and she interferes with the critic's pet Ship (how? Tonks isn't romantically linked with anyone in canon yet and may never be). And I'm of the school that doesn't believe that a canon character can be a bonafide Mary Sue anyway - even Ayla or James Bond, though definitely canon characters can be over-idealized and larger-than-life.

I've seen "fear of Mary Sueage" used as a club to try to get writers to dumb down their own, original fiction characters. I followd a link from the Teresa Neilsen Hayden site to another, name forgotten, where people were discussing their original fantasy novels. The messages were full of "I made my character ugly so she won't be a Mary Sue!" "Well, I made mine OLD and ugly!" "Well, I made MINE old, ugly, and comatose, hooked up to a life support machine so she can't accomplish anything! That way I can be SURE she's not a Mary Sue!" I have news for those people: Dumbing down your character doesn't mean you won't have a Mary Sue; it just means you'll have a dull character who puts your readers to sleep. Gary Stu-ish James Bond may be, but people enjoy him as a character and love to watch his exploits. I would rather read about a Sue-ish or Stu-ish character who was exciting instead of a character someone tried hard to "keep real" and as a result was dull and boring. Who wants to read about the Life and Times of Schleppy McBore?

Your examples of constructive criticism vs. "Your character is a Mary Sue!" are right on the mark. Beauty, talent, etc. don't make a Mary Sue, lack of plausibility and rampant canon-rape do. As a writer I welcome concrit, but I want to hear specific, concrete examples of where I am going wrong and why, not "Your character is a Mary Sue" or "Your story sucks!" because how on earth is that going to help me improve as a writer?

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I've seen "fear of Mary Sueage" used as a club to try to get writers to dumb down their own, original fiction characters.

Oh, that's awful. That sounds like people don't know how to create original characters -- because you have to have some reason to like the character you end up with, so that your reader will, too. There's a reason why all the fairy tales have beautiful wealthy princesses, etc., etc.

Icarus

[harveywallbang.livejournal.com]

never though of bond as a mary sue... but it makes total sense... i personally dislike that term, cause it just sounds stupid.. i agree about all the fictional characters and stuff...
come to think of it, i would be offended if someone said i had a mary sue. even though i definitely don't... i'd be offended because obviously they couldn't think of anything better to say... pffftt.... laziness..grr

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

laziness

That's exactly what I'm complaining about: the laziness of not defining what doesn't work in a fic. Just blasting someone as a Mary Sue is ineffective.

Icarus

[ragnhildholm.livejournal.com]

Oh, nice! Well said.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Danke!

[callmefreak.livejournal.com]

thank you so much for posting this. my character has been called a mary-sue so many freaking times and it's really pissing me off. even when i revamped it. she has one 'power' and its hardly that and it's because she's over another race and gosh okay my story is in harry's POV anyway. she has enemies and she's not drop dead georgous and she's not necessarily the main character but because harry likes her and she has some sort of power (which is important to helping harry defeat voldemort) she's automatically a mary sue. ugh people are such idiots sometimes.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

People need to be more specific about their criticism.

Ask them: "What do you consider to be Mary Sueish about this character?"

I hate criticism, too, but sometimes it can be helpful, even if it stings at first you'll think about it, and you may even find you agree. It's the vagueness of the "Mary Sue" accusation that I'm complaining about: it can't help your writing.

It could be any number of things that are causing people to label your character a Mary Sue. It could even be as subtle as... wording choices... that make her feel like a self-insert. Obviously James Bond is Ian Fleming's self-insert, or Anne McCaffrey's Lessa (and Menolly) in the Pern series are both self-inserts. Faramir of Lord of the Rings is Tolkien's admitted self-insert.

I'm not saying that everyone who's been called a Mary Sue isn't a Mary Sue. Anna has a wonderful portrayal of Hermione in Roman Holiday (http://www.witchfics.org), where Hermione is a self-insert into a well-plotted, enjoyable story, beautifully characterised, told with great humour and skill. I enjoy it, even as I recognise the implausibility of Draco, Snape, and Bill all swooning over our favourite bookworm.

The term "Mary Sue" just doesn't point out what's really wrong with the story/characterisation/what-have-you. It's too vague.

Ask them to be more specific.

Icarus