Hmm. Do I wade back into this mess?

[icarus]

Do I do it, or not?

People in the SGA fandom were really pissed off about Last Port Of Call. The discussion started out interesting, revealing, and turned ugly. There are a couple of theories about this kicking around.

1) The "young fandom" theory, where everything's fresh and new, but the controversies haven't cropped up yet; "the explorers are the ones with the arrows in their backs";

2) The "drunken luau" theory, where yes, SGA is a fun drunken luau, but the flip side of that is that serious, challenging stories are not acceptable, the way you don't discuss the Holocaust at a cocktail party;

3) The characterization of John was really off. If I were a new writer, I'd consider it, but... no, I don't think so. I've been writing quite some time now, and characterization has always been where I'm solid. Now if someone came after me with a pitchfork about my yerk-transitions, or the stripped-down scenery ("Hello, Icarus? This is not a one-act play with a tree and a bucket, tell us where they are") or sloppily using the same word fifteen times in three pages, yeah okay.

Besides, the reaction was just too strong for it to be a simple characterization issue. Poor characterization you just go *snerk* and walk. It doesn't launch a crusade. Nor does the story get recc'd by people whose opinions I respect.

Nah. The issue was content.

But that's not what this poll is about. Or it is, but only sort of.

You see, I have another probably-guaranteed-to-be-unpopular John-fic. An SGA story where the content might fan the flames. It comes from the question:

If Rodney screws up due to hubris and ends up blowing up a solar system, and Carson screws up due to his medical curiosity and far-too-flexible ethics for the sake of his bright-eyed good intentions and fucks up a sentient being, and Weir screws up by bargaining away her principles for the sake of 'pragmatism' and gives away the position of Atlantis -- how and why does John screw up?

Okay, there are worse things in life than being controversial. But I'm feeling gun-shy. This isn't what I expected of SGA, naive of me, I know. I haven't encountered a reaction this bad since I defended slash to a group of Lord of the Rings anti-slashers in 2002 (and the arguments were eerily familar).

So, to everyone on the f-list, not just the SGA fandom who might not respond (results are viewable by none but me):

[Poll #761572]


ETA: Adds "if Carson screws up." Because "if Carson screws due to his medical curiosity and far-too-flexible ethics" has a completely different meaning.

ETA2: Wow. I'm far behind on answering everyone's comments, but that answered the question pretty thoroughly. I did not expect "er, I kinda liked Last Port" to be the strongest response, not by a long shot. So either a) the people who hated Last Port Of Call don't read my LJ (a good possibility), or b) the ones who hated it were a strident, vocal minority, and I got the wrong impression about how the story was received. Those who liked it were shouted down by those who didn't.

Either way, there's enough interest to, okay, write the Sheppard Screws Up story. But I warn you: it's het. It might not be that bad, I just... I didn't think Last Port Of Call was that controversial either.

ETA3: I'm so glad this person stopped by. Yes. Perfect example. This is the tone and nasty attitude that I've encountered over Last Port Of Call.

I've made the poll viewable to only me so that SGA readers can feel free to respond without facing problems from others. Most of the responders are SGA readers.

Comments

[kijikun.livejournal.com]

discuss the Holocaust at a cocktail party;

Oops.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

Where's the "GIMME! GIMME! GIMME!" option?

[ninasis.livejournal.com]

You know, I don't remember reading anything negative about that story. And I have some of the most negative people in the SGA fandom on my f'list.

I read pretty much anything you write, but I can't promise to read anything too angsty (unless there's a lot of comfort to balance it out) or a deathfic. But you should definitely write whatever you want. Sure, there are a lot of folks in the SGA fandom who love to rain on other's parades - but that shouldn't stop you from doing what you enjoy. Because for every one who whines, there are a lot more of us who will enjoy and appreciate.

[fluffyllama.livejournal.com]

I'd love to see the answer you come up with to that question. I'm more interested in seeing people explore the character in interesting ways than I am in reading the same fluffy!Sheppard fic a million times.

[cofax7]

Did it really get ugly? Because--and not to challenge your perceptions, but--I know from myself that what reads to me as someone totally slamming my story can sometimes to others read as critical but not particularly personal criticism. God knows I've seen published professionals overreact to mild criticism when it's posted in public. Which is not to say you did, but I never saw any outrage about the story. Then again, I'm not all that deep in SGA fandom, maybe someone was ranting about it.

Me, I liked the story as a very realistic interpretation of what Sheppard would likely be like, given his background and behavior in canon. Which I thought you laid out very clearly in the dvd commentary.

As for what to write next, well, write what makes you happy. Or what you want to write, anyway. Challenge yourself, or challenge the readers, or write happy fluffy bunny fic if that's what pleases you today. Overthinking audience reaction before you even start the story is, IMHO, a sure road to talking yourself out of writing at all. Serve the Story and, as they say, devil take the hindmost.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Well, the norm with stories people don't like is just hit the Back-button, claw at your eyes a moment, and feel grateful that didn't cost $10.95 for the paperback.

But one person I know rec'd it, and got quite an argument. Also, the comments got rather intense, if polite in the original posting on the sga_flashfic.

Then I had that cartoon moment of feeling like a flea followed by a hammer when I commented in someone else's journal and a couple people who didn't like the story in sga_flashfic followed me there (okay, ran across my comments) -- Aaaack!

Then there was the DVD commentary which went tits-up when I finally lost my temper after two weeks of heat.

The consensus for the most part was "good story" and then the qualifiers ran from "love it" to "interesting, I'm not sure John would do that" to "hateithateithateitbadwrongletmetellyouwhy!"

*does a double-take* There are negative people in the SGA fandom?

Gah. My naivete is perennial. Nothing quells my hope in the goodness of all people.

Icarus

[moxie-brown.livejournal.com]

People will always have favorite characters and are willing to turn a blind eye to certain traits that cool writers like you pick at like a scab. Push the envelope, bring the fandom to its knees!

[godiva696.livejournal.com]

I did like Last Port of Call, and I would definitely be of the "write what you feel" camp - my feeling is that, as a reader, it would be beyond ungrateful to assume that writers are there for my pleasure alone. They are sharing their hard-earned work, and if I don't like it, tough for me.

Er, by the way, if the results are viewable only by you, should I be seeing the numbers of who voted for what, even if I did just vote? *is clueless about polls*

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

There's no doubt in my mind that a lot of this is author over-sensitivity. Behold a conversation with my betas:

"Icarus, you have a semi-colon out of place."

"Nonono, I have good reasons for that semi-colon being there, I thought it through -- it's a great semi-colon!" *Hyperventilates.*

*Beta calmly pats Icarus, who peers out from between her fingers* "There, there. Can we move the semi-colon now?"

"Okay."

That said, I did have some people whose responses to the story were deeply personal, and not in a good way. I got some blowback from women who had experienced this sort of manipulation from men and were very angry that I would write their John doing this to, oh no, Rodney.

The geyser was interesting for about two weeks, then got to be a bit much. Though in retrospect it was only a handful of people.

Overthinking audience reaction before you even start the story is, IMHO, a sure road to talking yourself out of writing at all.

Good point. Besides, there's no way to know how people will respond. *thinks* I never know how people are going to respond. Readers always catch me off-guard.

Icarus

[nufaciel.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the story *yet* (I just got into the Stargate fandoms and am currently working my way through 50 pages of links for Jack/Daniel), so I haven't gotten to any SGA fics, other than the one I commented on a few days ago and a couple of Christmas ones from the SAC). But I did pic the "What's more important" option, with a close second on the "With that reaction?" one.

Exploring the characters is what makes fan fiction so much fun to write. Push that damned envelope. See where John might go in such a situation. There's nothing worse than reading the same damn cookie-cutter character over and over again, IMHO.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Kiji! It's been a while.

You laugh. I've done it. (Or an approximation.) Why are all the interesting topics off-limits?

Icarus

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Watch me overthink this story and it turns out to be lame....

Icarus

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I confess that I read a lot more fluffy fics than I write. *blushes*

Hey, do you know any edgy Sheppard stories? One's that have a definite military bend to them? I'm rec'ing John/Rodney at stargateficrec this month and I've got a ton of links, but I'm feeling like a want to do a theme. Or a couple of themes.

Icarus

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Ha! I love the icon. And pick at like a scab is very apt. I confess, my favorite Season Two eps were Trinity and Michael. SG-1 is noble, even if they can't quite make things turn out perfectly. SGA just... they're just floundering. It's great!

Icarus

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I'm hoping the fact that it's free will be good enough to allow me to experiment.

Though I kind of am writing for people's pleasure. The fact that people enjoy the stories or find them thought-provoking is my excuse to spend such a ridiculous amount of time on a hobby.

You should be able to see the numbers once you voted, just not who voted.

Icarus

[godiva696.livejournal.com]

Though I kind of am writing for people's pleasure

That makes sense, but I suppose I'd liken it to oh, say, a commissioned piece of work (art or otherwise) with guidelines of some description not originating from the person doing the work, and one that (cor)responds to the worker first and foremost. But then, I don't write or draw, so the comparison might be totally invalid. ;-)

You should be able to see the numbers once you voted, just not who voted

Right. Thanks for the clarification!

[giglet.livejournal.com]

Please please write what you want to write. SGA fandom may be characterized by fluffy crackfic rather than deep disturbing and/or ethics-delving stories, but that isn't all it is, or should be. It should be a group of people interested in SGA, in whatever form.

Another way to look at it: there are some truly awful writers who produce dozens of fics. They are (apparently) internally motivated. I hope you are too, because your stories can only elevate the quality of fic in the fandom.

[fluffyllama.livejournal.com]

Heh. I read the fluff too - I read all kinds that I won't touch in other fandoms. It's the other stuff that makes my day, though.

I'll have a dig through my links and saved fics to see what else there is, but the only one that springs to mind right now is Exigencies (http://rivier.livejournal.com/267985.html). I love that fic for the same reason I love the 'Michael' episode, no matter how many people complain about the ethics in it.

[starrylizard.livejournal.com]

Seriously, just write whatever you want to write. If you're uncomfortable posting it, or afraid you'll get burnt then don't write it, or perhaps cultivate a thicker skin.

I'm not sure why you're asking us, except that maybe you're hoping to generate a little more controversy when you post it. Actually, that's a fair enough reason. I'd do that too! *grins*

Anyway, after this post, you'll have to write it, or a mob will probably come after you demanding the promised "Shep screws up" fic! There are probably people sharpening their pencils in preparation for a good argument right now.

I love a little controversy and I also love to see the characters explored in different ways. Sometimes I feel like I read the same fic over and over again.

I only wish I could write a story that someone would bother to think about and comment on, so just be proud of it. I love a well thought out argument with a purpose. Sounds like you got one. I'll have to check out those comments. People actually thinking! *shock/horror*


Oh and it goes without saying...write more skating!fic!!

[kijikun.livejournal.com]

I've been hiding over in the Doctor Who fandom.

I've done something simlair too, my sense of tact is often lacking. I don't know, something boring us to death.

[amalthia]

well you are already writing the fluffy bunny skating fic...I don't think it hurts to throw in a few edgy fics now and then. :)

Okay I'll be honest, my favorite stories of yours are the ones that push the envelop. Port of Call is one of my favorite stories and i've re-read it multiple times, like five or six times now.

I love Out of Bounds too but I probably won't re-read it much, maybe once or twice.

I like stories that push characters to their limits and explores what happens. I'm not sure what got everyone's panties in a twist about Port of Call because while yes it was hot and John hurt Rodney's feelings and the sex didn't turn out like either John or Rodney had hoped....I just don't get why there is controversy? (not that controversy is bad....but normally I can see why a story provokes that sort of reaction)

there was no raping, pillaging, character assassination (anyone who can't imagine a man wanting sex before he'll "maybe" die in two weeks, obviously hasn't met too many men) John didn't drug and rape Rodney while he was passed out. No characters died, there was no underage sex... Though really I wouldn't mind more stories with raping and pillaging...but not likely to happen in this fandom.

The point is I loved Port of Call, and I really wish there were more like it. I don't mind seeing my favorite characters with flaws. I love my husband good and bad together. No one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes, and I like to see stories reflect that sometimes.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Oh dear god no, I'm not seeking more controversy.

I've just tried skulking for a week or so and I'm not very good at it. It just kills me, or at least when it comes to my own journal.

I'd rather put things that are bugging me on the table and get some perspective, like picking up what I think is an ugly vase and saying (as I plunk it on the table):

"There. Ugly vase. What do you think?"

Then several people will say, "Er, yeah, that's pretty ugly."

And then someone will surprise me and say, "Actually, I rather like it. What-? It's interesting."

Then I can revise my opinion to "Interesting ugly vase. What-? It can be both interesting and ugly."

or perhaps cultivate a thicker skin.

*coughs* Yep. But that's why, other than journalism, I haven't attempted to write professionally. I might have the writing ability but I don't have a thick enough skin. Not yet. Fanfic readers invest so little in the stories -- no cash, no precious space in their magazines -- that they're very lenient.

Icarus

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Thank you, I'll check it out. Questionable ethics? It sounds great.

Icarus

[plsteward.livejournal.com]

This got my vote- What's more important, writing what you want/need to write or how people respond? You'll never write anything good if you can't push the envelope.

But I was v. tempted to hit- If this story isn't at least as controversial as Last Port Of Call I'm going to be very disappointed. or *stages a coup* Not until the skating!fic is done!

Honestly, as long as you're happy with your work, not going to breakdown if people backlash when you start to delve into the darkness that SGA canon has & tarnish their shiny boy-hero-person, then do it. I'll cheerlead & rec & all that if you do; love fic that makes me wonder or feel like crap (maybe I'm a masochist or sadist, or just like deep fic.) SGA fandom is happy bubbly & v. superficial really.

There aren't a ton of deep fics but the ones that are have all rocked my socks & made me beg for more while weeping over the state of my ethics & theirs too. I don't get why there isn't more dark!fic or character pieces because canon's given us a ton of stuff to work with. LPoC was great & I just don't see why there aren't more yeas than nays from your initial feedback.

But you know, if you can't deal with making people cry or throw tomatoes why in the world would you even think about the imperfect side of John?

[theemdash]

What I just read was, "Hey Em, I keep talking about this fic you haven't read. You still haven't read it, huh? Oh. Okay." So now I'm reading it. Because I want to know what all the fuss is about.