icarus: Snape by mysterious artist (Default)
[personal profile] icarus
Dear f-list,

I need your advice.

A month ago I finished a creative writing class. The class went very, very badly, and I don't think I need to go into details now since I've spent many posts describing it.

What I need your help on is the after-effects of the class and limiting the damage on my writing. The symptoms are as follows:

From the antagonistic and undermining comments of the teacher (such as the classic, *snort* "and you wanted to NaNoWriMo...") I'm struggling with a separation between myself and the story, killing it with over-criticism before it can be written. How do I get rid of that?

From the heavy-handed "rules" orientation of the class, rules that I had to follow in order to survive the class with my grade intact, I'm now hyper-aware of "adverbs," and to a lesser extent, "summary," and "visual detail" in such a way that it's distracting and hard for me to finish a first draft without killing it. How do I remove those three months of training?

From the personal animosity he directed at me and at science fiction, I feel defensive and on the spot, focused on whether a story is "good" instead of just enjoying it as I have in the past. How do I counteract that oversensitivity to audience reaction? I've always written for the reader -- my first stories were oral, told to my friends as I made them up.

He did a lot of damage, more than I realized, and I'm not sure how to shake off the negativity.

Frankly, based on how he treated us, I have to assume that he's really not that good of a writer. How can he be, if this is any indication of how he squeezes out a story? If this is what he does to himself... *shudders* When I talked to him he had no writing projects going except for a creative writing thesis that he hadn't begun.

That's not a writer. That's someone who's "learned to write" and has found they "are good at it."

A writer needs to write. A writer can't stop the stories nibbling at their toes, or else they're bemoaning about writer's block and wanting to write. Or else they're stalled in that monolithic story.

I feel like I have had some sealant poured over my skin and I can't breathe.

There are several stories starving for lack of oxygen at the moment:

- A Christmas fic called "Silent Night" where John plays guitar for his team under the stars on an alien world

- The latter half of a story where John sleeps his way through half the Pegasus galaxy and the dire consequences come home to roost

- The next scene of Out Of Bounds, where John and Rodney make dinner and play

They're scratching and clawing to get out, they have complete outlines and they're started, but I can't seem to give them air.
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Date: 2007-01-12 03:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wymsie.livejournal.com
I'm struggling with a separation between myself and the story, killing it with over-criticism before it can be written. How do I get rid of that?

I've always done this to myself and if you do find out how to get rid of it, please share. I have so many stories I want to write but I just can't. Not without a lot mental hair pulling or a mix of a challenge deadline and sleep deprivation (I'm not so critical when I can barely think). *sigh*

Good luck!

Date: 2007-01-12 03:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
Shit. My normal mode is one of devil-may-care cocky self-confidence combined with, "ha, have you read ff.net lately?"

I started writing out of frustration with feminized guys, and I never aimed to be a great writer, I just wanted to do better than some of what I'd read.

And then I just got into the fun of the story. Even when people haven't liked a story I've always felt there was an audience somewhere for it. If I like it, probably someone else does, too. So far that's been true.

But there was this constant subtle message in that writing class that it mattered somehow if you were good or bad at it. That in and of itself is a story-killer. It's poisonous.

Defining a "good" story is problematic to start with.

It's like defining "beauty" -- you can't, really, not without creating a neurosis. If you create an abstract measure of beauty ("thin is in!") then no one can meet it, all the gorgeous round girls think they've failed at being gorgeous when in fact it's the standard that's the problem.

Then along comes some opera singer with her full confidence and full figure and you go, wow, "she's gorgeous!" nevermind what the Miss American pageant says. It's because she hasn't been defeated or seduced into believing that narrow, impossible to meet standard of beauty can be met by anyone. And the slippery bugger keeps changing, too.

Stories are like that. Everyone has a different shape and a different voice, and there is no universal measure of "good"-ness.

There's just effective, and ineffective, and then underneath there's this fire that's the essence of the story that's going to shine through if you let it, even if your technique isn't ideal.

That fire is more important than anything else and that's what captivates the audience. So don't douse it with worrying if it's good or not. Just catch that wave and go with it.

Icarus *records this to play back to myself later*

Date: 2007-01-12 03:11 am (UTC)
libitina: Wei Yingluo from Story of Yanxi Palace in full fancy costume holding a gaiwan and sipping tea (Default)
From: [personal profile] libitina
The Christmas fic sounds fairly contained. It also sound like it might benefit from going back to the oral tradition. Why don't you get relaxed and pull out your outline and then just start making voice posts telling the story. Make them private - tell it a few times - then see if you want to keep it oral or if you want to write it out.

Date: 2007-01-12 03:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
Sometimes I write stories in chat to my friends, and that seems to be similar. Hmm, yeah, I might try the tape recording idea. (You and [livejournal.com profile] eternalmusings seem to think alike -- wondertwin powers, activate?)

Thank you.

Date: 2007-01-12 03:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] filenotch.livejournal.com
To quote Gaiman: Just. Finish. It.

I heard him talk once about writing to deadline, a skill he learned as a journalist. With fiction, he was asked, how do you do that? How do you force the ideas?

He says, you just write. Often, he observed, when he knew that parts of a piece had flowed easily and parts had been dragged out kicking and screaming because he had a deadline, when he went back and read it long enough later, he couldn't figure out which parts were which.

Plus, your teacher's crap sums up exactly why I can't stand to read much literary fiction. It's so damn self-conscious.

Just finish it. Set yourself a deadline (say on the skater fic since you posted a snippet to work off the dust) set a word target, and write it. Some of my best stuff on one project came because I had decided all the chapters would be between 3,200 and 3,800 words, and I hadn't reached the mark yet.

Date: 2007-01-12 06:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
To quote Gaiman: Just. Finish. It.

Okay. He has a good point there. Thanks.

Plus, your teacher's crap sums up exactly why I can't stand to read much literary fiction. It's so damn self-conscious.

It is a reason to run, don't walk, from the creative writing program. Which is too bad, I was sniffing around to try it out.

Icarus

Date: 2007-01-12 03:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eternalmusings.livejournal.com
I've never taken a creative writing class, so I don't have any personal experience to relay to you. But perhaps you should try some oral story writing again? Get a tape recorder and just start making up stories. It's hard to worry about adverbs and all that. At the very least, it might help you get back into the habit of just telling stories again.

Good luck!

Date: 2007-01-12 06:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
Like this?

There were three countries, each of which was owned by its own dragon. There was the high country with the mountains, where the ice dragon lived. She didn't come out very often except to receive gifts of gold and jewels; tribute it once was, but now she's old and a fixture, and the local people are rather proud of her, telling stories of her more fearsome days....

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From: [identity profile] ncp.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-01-12 04:06 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2007-01-12 03:26 am (UTC)
mad_maudlin: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mad_maudlin
Hmm. Maybe you just need to get back into the saddle with these fics? I know you're still writing, because you posted that lovely porn battle piece with John's fantasy man (and I know I didn't comment right away but OMG that was wonderful). Or is it that you feel all right tossing off something like a smutlet, but are getting anxious about your "real"/"serious" fic? (Please note the scare quotes there.)

Maybe if you try something that deliberately subverts some of Professor Pretentious's rules...play with style and structure a bit and see what comes of it. You don't even have to post it publically, just stretch all the writing muscles that got cramped up in that stupid class.

Date: 2007-01-12 06:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
Just push through? [livejournal.com profile] filenotch suggested that, too.

Or is it that you feel all right tossing off something like a smutlet, but are getting anxious about your "real"/"serious" fic? (Please note the scare quotes there.)

A little bit of both. I always tense up on WIPs when people start to notice them, even when I'm rolling happily in feedback. On the other hand, once I post part one I feel morally obligated to finish the story, so it's a good way to make myself write. But right now I'm being hard on everything I write, even pornalicious smutlets (Oh, I'm glad you liked it. I was thinking it sucked, but you knew that already.)

Messing with his rules might be an idea. Hmm...

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From: [personal profile] mad_maudlin - Date: 2007-01-12 08:14 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2007-01-12 03:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] an-kayoh.livejournal.com
I'm going to second the person above and say to just write. Set yourself a deadline or a wordcount and pound it out. I've often done this when I've had a story due for class or for a challenge, and usually the first draft goes off to the beta (giving me time to recover), returning covered in red ink.

By then, though, I know what's wrong with it and I feel up to revising. On some occasions I've kept as little as one scene through all of the drafts. It's easier to go back a revise something bad than to write something good right off.

And read. Read fanfiction, read scifi, read your favorite books, the ones where you're pretty sure that the authors weren't glancing over their shoulders every twenty seconds at their editors. It tends to be inspiring.

Date: 2007-01-12 06:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
Just write. That seems to be the consensus (and the way of fanfic).

That's interesting. Usually so much of my story is in the original outline that I change relatively little in the drafts -- mostly my betas ask me to add detail. But I feel so derailed I guess I can't really guarantee that it's going to run the way it has in the past. I mean, other than what I tried this week I haven't written fanfic, not so much as a drabble, since October.

I'll definitely read fanfiction, too.

Icarus

Date: 2007-01-12 03:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ursulakohl.livejournal.com
Write something intentionally horrible! Sign up to ff.net and post hundred-word snippets as MariSuzie588! See how many awful cliches you can pack into a sentence!

Date: 2007-01-12 06:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
Intentionally horrible? Okay!

Date: 2007-01-12 04:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] millefiori.livejournal.com
As filenotch says, the sort of writing he describes is the sort that bores me to tears. Adverbs and summary and visual detail don't matter if the story's got you by the throat and you think you're going to die if you don't find out what happens next right now! And that's the kind of story you write.

I think your teacher was antagonistic towards you because you made him feel threatened--here you are, someone who's actually writing and loving it, while he's...not. And to add insult to injury, you're not even properly embarrassed by writing sci fi. *rolls eyes* When someone has got me doubting myself like this, I'll ask myself if that's the kind of person I want to be. If he's not the kind of person you want to be--if he's not the kind of writer you want to be--then I think his opinions and advice can be ignored. There are a million ways to write, and the fact that someone hired him to teach a writing class doesn't mean his way is the right way.

I don't have any advice other than to write (or tell the story into a recorder and transcribe later). When I'm killing creativity with criticism I stop it by promising myself I'll come back and fix every awful thing...later, when it's all done. If I have to I'll make a note to myself so I won't forget the awful thing, and that's usually enough to quiet the critic so I can get on with it.

Date: 2007-01-12 06:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
I found the stories he asked us to produce as Dry. As. Dust.

Part of why he was antagonistic towards me is that he was really against "genre." He spent half a class period reading statements from our forum that opposed my position on genre, validating anyone who disagreed with me as the "kosher" view.

I learned later that he runs a Zine that is anti-genre.

I'll ask myself if that's the kind of person I want to be.

That's great advice. Even I disagreed with someone I wouldn't use my position as the teacher as a bully pulpit and I don't respect him as a writer. He seemed too confused when I talked about things like "research" on stories. Frankly, the only think that I would want to copy is his skill in running discussion.

Icarus

Date: 2007-01-12 04:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sarka.livejournal.com
Issue number 1:
Do you have a story which you HATED when you were writing it, but every time you read it you're surprised because it's actually pretty decent? Go read it.

I also know that you've got some fics you didn't like while you were writing, but got a good popular reaction - go read those reviews.

In short, undermine your own criticism. You're not the be-all end-all authority on what's a good story, not even your own stories.

Issue number 2.
My advice to this would be to keep writing. Just write, and focus on the "I can always beta it later."

Personally, for this I'd read some Icelandic sagas, but maybe that's just me... it's just that they are somewhat stunningly lacking in both adverbs and visual detail. It is also a very thorough course in the use of subtext.

Issue number 3.
I sometimes get hung up on this. When I do, I try writing until I'm completely bummed, then send what I've produced to one of my writing oriented friends to get their opinion. Usually, their opinion is somewhat better than mine ;)

Also, if you can get someone to sit on the other end of a YM convo and feed them bits and pieces of story as you write it, that helps.

Since you introduced me to [livejournal.com profile] salixbabylon, for which I owe you a depth of gratitude, btw, and she is the one who usually does this for me, I'll just tell you that she's really good at this ;)

Date: 2007-01-12 07:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
Issue 1: Yes, and I'll do that. The story I hated while I wrote it was Cursed Artefacts For Sale. Miserable experience and I almost added an apology to the top when I posted it. Most of my stories I think are pretty mediocre when I write them, but hey, good enough for government work. Every now and then I think a story's onto something good -- those are almost always the ones that are ignored, heh.

Issue 2: Okay, that seems to be the universal consensus.

Issue 3: I'll write the next part of Out Of Bounds and email it around, see what people think. I've left myself in a bad position with that one because I stopped pretty much halfway through a scene. But I'm re-reading it, hoping to pick up the thread of it again, listening to the music for it (which really helps).

[livejournal.com profile] salixbabylon is awesome. I'll never forget that flippant BlameSomeoneElse challenge fic Animagick where she did so much research.

Icarus

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From: [identity profile] salixbabylon.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-01-13 05:48 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2007-01-12 04:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/
I'm going to give purely practical advice: call your betas and have them look at a draft, get on IM and tell them the story and see how they react to plot points. Post a story and bask in the feedback.

You've been separated from the joy of telling the story; rather than trying to forget something, try to remember something else, something more important. You might find small changes in your tone, in focus, that your writing has evolved, but at least you will be writing.

Date: 2007-01-12 07:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
You've been separated from the joy of telling the story

You're right. All the work and none of the audience response.

It occurs to me: this is the experience most pre-published authors have for 99% (or all) of their careers.

Icarus

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From: [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/ - Date: 2007-01-12 08:29 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2007-01-12 04:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gaiaanarchy.livejournal.com
I don't know about this guy in particular and all his bad habits, but I think that the best thing to do is probably to look at the class like all other classes (well, if you're a slacker like me, anyhow) and say that a class is kinda like a continental breakfast - everything is spread out there for you to learn or not to learn and you get to taste and choose and not take everything to begin with. And of the stuff that you do take and put on your plate (sometimes just so you can pass) you only have to taste most of it - you don't have to eat any of it at all.

I'm sure there were good things you got from the teacher's overbearingness. Personally, even though I am one of those people you classed as 'needing to write' taking a class when the rules were laid out for me did my writing a world of good (and the difference is visible in my fics, you can see it). At first I was stressed because it was a forum class and a lot of times the other students were even harder critics than the Prof. Before I was kind of defiant in my 'I'll write what I write and I don't care if it's good,' which was needed to get me to write at all, but I'm also a believe in statistics - the 'rules' are there because they probably represent elements common to maybe 80% of good writing, and if you follow them, you increase your odds of a certain level of quality.

On the other hand, knowing the rules also means you can mess with them - if your professor is picky about adverbs - try making a race of aliens that use adverbs for everything! If you know that audience expects the overall flow of a story to go a certain way (they meet, they fall in love, they have conflict, they get introspective, they return to their lover's sweet embrace) then you can guide your audience along each step of the way and then throw them off a cliff at the end (erm . . . sorry, that's my own approach to storytelling coming through).

In the end, I think that having heard and even having been criticized by a guy who you acknowledge as being an ass and probably one of the ones who can write something with 80% in common with a good story and still miss the mark, can only do you well (see how I left that who ramble handing between subject and verb? Tehe).

I just say fuck him. Take the advice you like - know what it is that people think makes a good story and then do whatever the hell you please keeping all that in mind.

Then write him into a story and toss him off a cliff and into a pit of constipated vipers.

Date: 2007-01-12 07:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
then throw them off a cliff at the end (erm . . . sorry, that's my own approach to storytelling coming through).

Oh, ha, yes it is! I've yet to read a story of yours that I could predict. Did I give feedback on Mau Loa? Because that story... wow. There are only two or three stories that get me where I live in such a way that I find myself explaining the story to the boyfriend (he just nods and says, "yes, dear"). Three this year. Yours was one of them. That ending with the handprint, the subtlties like the silver hair, oh man. I did not see that coming.

I think we have a completely different experience of writing in the fanfiction world. We're hot-doggers, out on the slopes, falling down, learning what gets the laughs, makes them hold their breath -- what reaches the audience. In the creative writing classes they're in this rarified environment, studying the theory, learning about writing, but one step removed from the danger of actually putting the story in front of the audience.

I think our way works better.

Icarus

Date: 2007-01-12 05:38 am (UTC)
ext_18066: Default (Default)
From: [identity profile] apple-pi.livejournal.com
I second (third, fifth, whatever) the advice to just write. When I am stuck I have to be disciplined about it: have a specific time where I sit down, get rid of distractions, and assign myself a time period (usually an hour) where I am not allowed to do anything but write on one particular story. Can't check my email, can't check my flist, can't go to the kitchen and get food, no washing the dishes (and dude, you know it's desperate when I'm wanting to wash dishes to get out of it), etc. So I write for an hour (usually starting with me staring at the screen for a minute, typing in stops and starts, talking to myself out loud, yadda) and then, if I'm still hot, I keep going. If I hate every word, I stop, but I don't delete what I've written.

The other advice I have is different from what I see up there (although I didn't read every comment thoroughly), and that is: READ. Go read a bunch of scifi! Read genre fic! Read fantasy and romance and whatever you want. Hopefully that will remind you that it's okay to write those things, that genre fic is nothing to be sneered at, that science fiction can be fantastic and intelligent and character-driven and thought-provoking in all the same ways as more mainstream fiction novels.

Or, uh, whatever. :-)

I'm sorry you had such an asshat for an instructor. Writing isn't mathematics, and people who treat it like a series of formulas make it rough on everyone else. It's fine for THEM, but they shouldn't be allowed to TEACH, for Chrissakes.

Date: 2007-01-12 07:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
When I am stuck I have to be disciplined about it: have a specific time where I sit down, get rid of distractions, and assign myself a time period (usually an hour) where I am not allowed to do anything but write on one particular story. Can't check my email--

Ooo. Discipline. Good idea. I've, uh, washed dishes to avoid writing, yep.

I just found this great rec-list of SGA stories I haven't read, too. :)

Icarus

Date: 2007-01-12 06:02 am (UTC)
ext_9362: (Default)
From: [identity profile] izzybeth.livejournal.com
millionth-ing the advice to Just Write. (i should take that advice.)

also, if you have time (i know how busy you are with school), read. books, fic, the newspaper, the back of the cereal box. that usually helps to kickstart me.

also, if you are so inclined, make a little voodoo doll of your teacher and SET IT ON FIRE.

Date: 2007-01-12 07:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
also, if you are so inclined, make a little voodoo doll of your teacher and SET IT ON FIRE.

Ha. And I may burn the stories he made us write. [livejournal.com profile] wildernessguru will help me. He likes torching things. All firefighters are pyromaniacs at heart.

Icarus

Date: 2007-01-12 06:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rike-tikki-tavi.livejournal.com
I have no idea how to shake the effects of your "class", but I want to strangle that guy. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!

And wouldn't that be a sight. Couple of angry fangirls showing up at his place, because his shit is depriving you of writing and us of fic. Again with the GRRRRRRR!

I can't much say about adverbs and summary, because I know nothing about writing theory and I usually don't notice the number of adverbs in a story, but I can tell you that I love visual details. If it's done well, it makes the story so much more dense and real.

Ok, basically this is a long winded way of saying to trust your instincts and just write. Maybe create a filter and post it flocked, see what other people are thinking. You did that when you were unsure about the one scene in Out of Bounds and it seemed to work. I mean, unlike that guy, everybody here knows that you can write.

Date: 2007-01-12 07:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
The weirdest thing was that, as soon as the class was over, he turned back into a nice guy again.

I think he hated teaching that class. I know he hated teaching me.

but I can tell you that I love visual details. If it's done well, it makes the story so much more dense and real.

The visual detail is something that I agree with him on, but there's a way to do it where you're focused on the important aspects of the story-telling and let the details come from there -- what the character notices tells you a lot about the character. What happens with the way he taught visual detail is that everything becomes important. Let me see if I can give an example:

John dropped Rodney off at the store.

Okay, yeah, that needs a little more. But here's an example of a story loaded with unimportant visual detail:

John adjusted the mirror and looked over his left shoulder as the yellow VW bus pulled in front of him and John had to slam on the breaks. He edged around a muddy SUV that was backing into a parking spot then dove in front of traffic to drop Rodney off in front of the grocery store in the illegal parking zone. A little old lady walked heedlessly into traffic in front of them, her head held high, and A BMW rode John's bumper as he revved the engine. Rodney climbed out, muttering to himself. John said, "Don't take forever this time, okay?"

I mean there's detail and then there's detail.

Icarus

Date: 2007-01-12 07:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] salixbabylon.livejournal.com
*hug* Same as everyone else said. My experience writing when I felt demoralized after some harsh betaing was similar - I wanted to write but felt stuck, afraid. I worried about doing it wrong and my normal style was totally blocked.

So I took a long break. And then I wrote for me. Write with tons of adverbs, 3 per sentence. Write the purplest prose you can and indulge in feeling defiant. DOn't write with the goal of showing it to anyone, necessarily, just write for you, just get words on the page and let go of the sense of worry that it's not good enough.

Eventually, you realize that it bloody well *is* good enough. You rock.

*hug* (Lots of hot baths and port helps, too.)

Date: 2007-01-12 07:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
I've never been able to get into the "write for me" idea. It sounds selfish. Probably because ti doesn't have anything with how I started as a writer, telling stories to others. So whenever I hear that I think, "write for myself? What? Why?"

But I can understand the "write what you enjoy" idea. Usually, if you enjoy it, someone else will, too.

Icarus

Date: 2007-01-12 07:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] arachnethe2.livejournal.com
Dear Icarus,

I'm comenting for the first time on your lj, since it is finally the right time to tell you how very interessting I find your writing about your religion, your life and your studies.

You were asking for help in dealing with your current struggle. My advise is: just continue writing, telling yourself that you will deal with this badly written place later.

This one attitude helped me often when I was desperate with my own 'horrible' english and the story stood stuck on one place for months. Today, when this feeling of 'horrible' english strucks me again I'm telling to myself: yes, this pace is badly written but later, there is going to be plenty of time to correct it. And later, when I return to this place I find our that this scene, paragraph, or even the whole story wasn' t so bad after all. :)

Date: 2007-01-12 07:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
Oh, well, welcome. I'm surprised actually, you've been on my f-list for a while, haven't you?

telling yourself that you will deal with this badly written place later.

That's a good idea. I'm good at procrastination. So procrastinate about dealing with the "bad" instead of procrastinating about writing? *g*

Icarus


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From: [identity profile] arachnethe2.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-01-12 07:56 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2007-01-12 08:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mkcs.livejournal.com
As a non-writer (well, not stories), I can only give advice based on my experience as a visual artist, not a writer, but I think this is relevant.

Write! Write nonsense if you have to. If you write lots, you'll lose the stupid stuff you got from the class. The image I use is that someone has built a little dam in the stream, and you need to send lots of water down the stream to wash it away.

Another thing that might help is reading Stephen King's book On Writing. He basically says the same thing: it is writing that makes one able to write. (Besides, it's a good read.)

Finally, here's my favourite quote about writing:

"I've whittled them down to two pieces of advice. Which are, (1) if you're
going to be a writer, you have to write. (2) You have to finish things." Neil Gaiman

Date: 2007-01-12 07:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
Another thing that might help is reading Stephen King's book On Writing.

You know, that would be fun.

"I've whittled them down to two pieces of advice. Which are, (1) if you're
going to be a writer, you have to write. (2) You have to finish things." Neil Gaiman


Gaiman's fast becoming my hero, just based on what you and [livejournal.com profile] filenotch have said.

Icarus

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From: [identity profile] mkcs.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-01-13 08:55 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2007-01-12 10:49 am (UTC)
alyndra: (Default)
From: [personal profile] alyndra
Okay, just for variety's sake: if you don't happen to feel like writing, don't write!

I sympathize, though. I thought about studying creative writing in college, but then I took an online creative writing course. I kind of hated it. On the bright side, it gave me valuable intel on what not to do in college.

Date: 2007-01-12 07:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
I tried that one. Discounting those two drabbles this week, I haven't written anything outside of school since October.

Thank goodness that creative writing class counts as a literature credit on my English Lit degree.

Date: 2007-01-12 11:08 am (UTC)
wychwood: chess queen against a runestone (Default)
From: [personal profile] wychwood
On the oversensitivity thing, I'd guess that the best answer would just be to keep putting stuff out there for people to read - fanfic, original snippets, whatever. We're usually pretty good at responding, on LJ. And we're interested!

Date: 2007-01-12 07:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
Okay. Things were a little dead on some of the drabbles I wrote so I figured they sucked. I may post some things locked for a while.

Icarus

Date: 2007-01-12 11:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] electricandroid.livejournal.com
Woman.You've had bigger assholes in your life whom you were supposed to look up too for longer periods of time. You got over them. Please do not let this little pisshead phase you

:)

MWAH

Date: 2007-01-12 07:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
Pisshead. *cracks up* And how did you guess he was short little thing?

I dunno. Writing's been my escape but it's been invaded by carpenter ants. And pisshead ants.

Date: 2007-01-12 01:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enname.livejournal.com
I echo all those who say write. Just do it. Just finish it. Get it out. Don't stop to fiddle and stuff until it is out. Or not much fiddling. Then think about it and hand it off to a beta so they can smack you if they think you are getting too fiddly and pernickety. At least until you have some sort of equilibrium back.

I have to do it with my thesis - if I start worrying about what I am writing I never write.

Fuck adverbs. If you don't use them much, then it doesn't matter. They can be sorted out afterwards. Really, they can be sorted out whether you should use it, or do need to go and describe. Same with visual detail. Go with what you instinct says the first go, not what you have running over your head. If you are second guessing, leave it as it is and get someone else to look it over.

You have plenty of betas, but I'll also volunteer for extras if needed.

Date: 2007-01-12 07:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
If you are second guessing, leave it as it is and get someone else to look it over.

*writes that down* Yes. That's the problem, second and third-guessing, too.

This weekend, I write.

Icarus

Date: 2007-01-12 01:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] teaphile.livejournal.com
You know what's amusing? This is exactly the kind of thing NaNo is meant to cure. The whole point of NaNo is to just write without censoring yourself. So the fact that he decided you weren't somehow "good" enough for NaNo, well, tickles me.

It does sound like you learned some useful things, you just don't have the perspective to deal with them yet because of all the other bullshit. As the others said, just keep at it. You have years (?) of habit behind you; you can't have overcome it all in the few months of the class. Write garbage for a while--not on projects you like, but on throw-aways--and maybe it'll all mesh together for you soon.

Date: 2007-01-12 04:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
To tell you the truth, this professor -- well, 26-year-old T.A. actually -- always struck me as a less experienced writer, who's had less teacher training than I have. These poor kids get tossed into teaching without any training. I watched him flounder through this class and he admitted to me that he didn't really have a plan.

As for learning anything...

I disagree with him on avoiding adverbs. Linguistically, adverbs are an essential part of speech that serve a specific function. I do agree that sometimes people use a flimsy adverb in place of description. Adverbs should color your verbs, be light touches.

But even that statement's not true, because everything in your story should be colored by characterization, which may mean a lot of adverbs. For example, J.K. Rowling uses adverbs to maintain a "children's book" tone.

As my (good) writing professor told me two years ago: give people a list of "don'ts" and they'll cling to them. They'll freeze up around that idea. It becomes a tar baby. As a creative writing teacher with beginning students it's a mistake. I put my head in my hands when he did this and had immediate examples -- using just a variation on his own examples -- where what he said was untrue.

As for avoiding summary, that's also problematic. Summary (and non-summary) are like perspective in a painting: some things need to be in focus, and some things should not be. The stories I saw students writing in that class were flattened. Even the examples he used in the class had summary everywhere.

It's really about control. One way (and only one way, there are many others) to have the control over what to summarize and what not to is to go deep into the character. But telling someone a don't, as in "don't use summary," will pull them out of the story, and out of the character perspective that will give them that control.

Now I agree with him about visual detail, but again, that's problematic, at least in the way he taught it. There are important details and unimportant details. Setting can completely take over a story -- which might be okay, look at the Lord of the Rings -- or it can cause students to completely lose sight of any kind of pacing.

At least here he's not setting up a "don't," he just needed to develop the idea.

Frankly, I learned much more from reading [livejournal.com profile] auburnnothenna's In The City Of Seven Walls and talking to her about giving that detail without letting it take over. I was heavily influenced by Tolkien and Hawthorne so I actually had to learn to beat back the visual detail (I call it setting addiction) a few years ago.

So, I can't think of a single thing I learned in that class except how not to teach creative writing. It was like watching very bad parenting. You can't do anything about it. You know it's hard for the parent so you don't want to judge. At the time, you cringe and promise yourself "oh, god, I swear I'll never do that."

Icarus

Date: 2007-01-12 03:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yin-again.livejournal.com
Best writing advice I ever got - my mentor looked me straight in the eye and said the following:

"I hereby give you permission to write badly."

He didn't give me a definition of "bad," he just let me know that my entire job as a writer, especially in rough draft, was to get the story out onto the page. To get to the end. That's all.

Then, you edit. But the rough draft is about taking that oral tradition and putting in on paper so that you can work with it later. Many, many of my first drafts have paragraphs like this:

The evening had gone beautifully. The champagne had been perfectly chilled, the food was delicious. There were critics doing critic things but not in a bad way. The photographs were displayed in gunmetal gray frames on white walls with small spotlights overhead. Over half of them had sold during the preview. Ben had felt such joy as he had attached discreet gold “sold” tags to many of his personal favorites. Best of all, David had come alone. He looked good. Ben gad hardly gotten to say two words to him, which he felt was probably for the best, as his nervousness was increasing as the night wore on.

...with the bold bits being things I wrote badly on purpose because I wasn't sure of the wording but needed to get the story out. I'll go back later and make it prettier.

Part of your job as a writer and a student of the craft is to evaluate everything you're exposed to and then to sift out what is useful to you and let the rest go. This teacher sounds like he belongs entirely in the "let it go" area.

I'm so sorry you had such a crappy experience, hon.

Date: 2007-01-12 07:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
"I hereby give you permission to write badly."

Thank you, and thank you for your example. It's extremely helpful to see it like that. Yeah, I can do that.

icarus

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From: [identity profile] yin-again.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-01-12 08:48 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2007-01-12 06:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] harveywallbang.livejournal.com
i'm with everyone else, just write! write until you find the joy again that quiets his stupid voice.
so, i offer lots of encouragement. lots of cheering-on. lots of other good stuff that serves as encouragement too (my brain's thesaurus is on vacation).
go icarus! yay icarus! woooooo!

Date: 2007-01-12 07:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
write until you find the joy again that quiets his stupid voice.

Thank you. I'll do that. That was the point of Out Of Bounds in the first place. *g*

Date: 2007-01-12 07:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bruinsfan.livejournal.com
I'm an illustrator and painter rather than a writer, but I think the two creative processes have enough in common for this advice to avoid being completely wrongheaded: try something new for a bit to recharge your batteries.

Work in a different medium, like the return to oral storytelling some suggested above. Try writing out a vague idea as poetry rather than prose (it doesn't have to be Shakespeare - maybe an easy format like a series of related haikus). Or in play form, with lines of dialogue and stage directions. The work of yours that I've seen has been largely realistic if not naturalistic; try your hand at absolutely farcical crack!fic instead. Or in a genre you've never tried before. Anything that's a chance of pace and will let you exercise your creativity without worrying how the results will compare to your usual work.

Date: 2007-01-12 07:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icarusancalion.livejournal.com
try something new for a bit to recharge your batteries.

Hmm. Interesting. I wonder what I haven't tried yet. *considers*

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