Hmm. Do I wade back into this mess?

[icarus]

Do I do it, or not?

People in the SGA fandom were really pissed off about Last Port Of Call. The discussion started out interesting, revealing, and turned ugly. There are a couple of theories about this kicking around.

1) The "young fandom" theory, where everything's fresh and new, but the controversies haven't cropped up yet; "the explorers are the ones with the arrows in their backs";

2) The "drunken luau" theory, where yes, SGA is a fun drunken luau, but the flip side of that is that serious, challenging stories are not acceptable, the way you don't discuss the Holocaust at a cocktail party;

3) The characterization of John was really off. If I were a new writer, I'd consider it, but... no, I don't think so. I've been writing quite some time now, and characterization has always been where I'm solid. Now if someone came after me with a pitchfork about my yerk-transitions, or the stripped-down scenery ("Hello, Icarus? This is not a one-act play with a tree and a bucket, tell us where they are") or sloppily using the same word fifteen times in three pages, yeah okay.

Besides, the reaction was just too strong for it to be a simple characterization issue. Poor characterization you just go *snerk* and walk. It doesn't launch a crusade. Nor does the story get recc'd by people whose opinions I respect.

Nah. The issue was content.

But that's not what this poll is about. Or it is, but only sort of.

You see, I have another probably-guaranteed-to-be-unpopular John-fic. An SGA story where the content might fan the flames. It comes from the question:

If Rodney screws up due to hubris and ends up blowing up a solar system, and Carson screws up due to his medical curiosity and far-too-flexible ethics for the sake of his bright-eyed good intentions and fucks up a sentient being, and Weir screws up by bargaining away her principles for the sake of 'pragmatism' and gives away the position of Atlantis -- how and why does John screw up?

Okay, there are worse things in life than being controversial. But I'm feeling gun-shy. This isn't what I expected of SGA, naive of me, I know. I haven't encountered a reaction this bad since I defended slash to a group of Lord of the Rings anti-slashers in 2002 (and the arguments were eerily familar).

So, to everyone on the f-list, not just the SGA fandom who might not respond (results are viewable by none but me):

[Poll #761572]


ETA: Adds "if Carson screws up." Because "if Carson screws due to his medical curiosity and far-too-flexible ethics" has a completely different meaning.

ETA2: Wow. I'm far behind on answering everyone's comments, but that answered the question pretty thoroughly. I did not expect "er, I kinda liked Last Port" to be the strongest response, not by a long shot. So either a) the people who hated Last Port Of Call don't read my LJ (a good possibility), or b) the ones who hated it were a strident, vocal minority, and I got the wrong impression about how the story was received. Those who liked it were shouted down by those who didn't.

Either way, there's enough interest to, okay, write the Sheppard Screws Up story. But I warn you: it's het. It might not be that bad, I just... I didn't think Last Port Of Call was that controversial either.

ETA3: I'm so glad this person stopped by. Yes. Perfect example. This is the tone and nasty attitude that I've encountered over Last Port Of Call.

I've made the poll viewable to only me so that SGA readers can feel free to respond without facing problems from others. Most of the responders are SGA readers.

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/meara_/]

Allow me to preface this comment with the fact that I've only read one other SGA fic and it was one of yours. I've never even seen the TV show. I'm firmly entrenched in HP fandom.

But...

I read this fic and loved it! I loved the internal dialogue that John had going on. I loved the whole "oh for fuck sake can we just get the show on the road already" mentality he had. I loved that when dealing with Rodney he wasn't overly snarky...er... Or any more snarky than the average dude who may die in a couple of weeks and has an agenda and a frustrating I really want it-no I don't-yes I do sexual partner.

I wonder if people are confusing John's internal dialogue -which is being interpreted as date rapish- with his actual actions, while a bit brusque at times, are not overly coercive.

As for issues about characterization I can only assume that you've pushed a few buttons there.

Feel free to come back to HP fandom and write a non con/coercion fic where Snape is forcing Harry. Um....

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I wonder if people are confusing John's internal dialogue -which is being interpreted as date rapish- with his actual actions, while a bit brusque at times, are not overly coercive.

Good point! Yes, there's a huge difference between what John thinks and what he actually says/does, and he's much more impatient (and unfiltered and unpleasant) in his mind.

Feel free to come back to HP fandom and write a non con/coercion fic where Snape is forcing Harry. Um....

I have to admit, the HP crowd that I've shown this story are a little more, shall we say, experienced? Universally they've laughed and said, "What the hell's wrong with this?" and "Wow, this is mild. Are you sure this is the story people were upset about?"

Icarus

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Although I did have some people say that they didn't believe that John would be so ignoble as to decide to have sex with anything that moves once he had two weeks to live.

I've started a poll with my male friends on this question. So far, every single last one of them would do exactly what John is doing (well, I left out the gay sex with Rodney part, but "two weeks to live, what would you do?" -- "Get laid" has pretty much been the universal answer).

Icarus

[amireal.livejournal.com]

I just--

I'm not speaking for everyone.

But I really have no problem with the concept of John wanting to get laid before he dies.

I really, really don't.

And I'm reading all of these comments and I see a theme about how they're perceiving the people who were uncomfortable with the fic. The theme? Being that's not what I was unhappy with at all. Any of it.

I'm not sure if I ever specifcally said it, so I thought I'd step in and say it here. (again, I'm not attempting to be all negative and mean, really)

I was bothered that John would put getting laid above the other person's comfort like that. As you mentioned somewhere earlier... that grabbing of the wrist.. that was a place where it was just dubious enough that I feel John would have actually pulled back for a bit. In the few sexual encounters we've seen him near, the partner has either been the agressor or it's been "omg moonlight stroll, you're so pretty!". Which isn't to say he wouldn't be more aggressive, but *my perception* (and we're totally allowed to disagree here, it's not the end of the world) is that he's far less likely to be *as* aggressive as you painted him.

...on a similar but different topic, to be honest, that's not where the fic started clearly becoing not it for me. If you're interested I can do a full thig, but I'm sure you've heard all or most of it before.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Actually, agreeing or disagreeing with what John does, or not liking the story isn't really an issue for me. I don't care about that. People dislike stories all the time.

For example, I just received a long email over a story in another fandom where the writer was thrilled with my non-fluffy characterization of Ron/Hermione -- and then spent most of the email ranting about the implausibility of certain other popular stories. The stories he was ranting about were well-liked, and I don't think that characterization was really his issue. Rather, he placed an emphasis on plot, that's what he wanted (with a side order of sex), and whenever the romance occurred at the expense of plot, well, he didn't get what he wanted.

Likewise people who are reading for romance, or looking for a hero in John are guaranteed to hate Last Port Of Call. Or maybe there's something else a reader is looking for, but obviously there's an investment there to see a strong reaction.

That doesn't matter. We all have different tastes.

What's disturbed me is something you haven't done.

There's been a strident element attacking the characterization, attempting to convince me that it's wrong (it's not gonna happen, too many people I respect dig it) and that I shouldn't write John like this.

That's oppressive. If an author has less support than I have or has less experience, then the people who've done this could discourage some good, blossoming SGA writers. It has a chilling effect on the fandom.

For a fandom to grow you need the full range of artistic expression. This means that stories will turn up that we don't like. I hate soppy, crying h/c Rodney -- I don't buy it -- but that doesn't mean I'm going to jump on an author for writing it. I hit the Back button and feel grateful that it's free and I'm not out $10.95 for the paperback.

Now, on the feeling of your view being mischaracterized -- two thirds of the comments that were uncomfortable with John's actions (yours included, though millefiori whom I've known a long time and who beta'd my "Name Dropping" in 2003 also felt that way) talked about their preferences, and their feelings. That's different, and perfectly valid. I can't control someone's response to a story, nor would I want to.

But that's a far cry from the vehemence of the other third who didn't (or couldn't) separate their personal feelings and preconceptions from the story. If they didn't like it, it must be that the story had a problem. With distance and time, looking back on it, I consider that immature.

Icarus


P.S. *sighs* It's also a measure of the success of the story that some women's responses were that visceral. A surprising number of women who had experienced this type of sexual manipulation projected themselves onto Rodney. There were very telling responses: "I can't imagine any adult woman who hasn't been forced into sex with a man." This over a story that didn't contain a woman.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Right on cue, not twenty minutes after you commented, someone showed up with exactly the nasty, sarcastic tone and attitude that I mean (http://icarusancalion.livejournal.com/517374.html?thread=6707454#t6707454). That's the reason for the poll (most of the responders I recognize from sga_flashfic and skating!fic readers).

Can I expect to be treated like this if I write more challenging John!fic, such as the "John Screws Up" story? Is this acceptable treatment of an author in the SGA fandom?

To be honest, the only time I've encountered a tone like this is when I debated a group of anti-slashers in the Lord of the Rings fandom on the Barrow-downs (http://www.barrowdowns.com) in 2002.

Icarus