Xanphibian, thank you.

[icarus]

Thank you, xanphibian.

For the record, I too am an incest survivor and I write about incest. heatherly's post... I have no words. Fortunately, xanphibian does.

Xanphibian sums up a lot of what I feel.

Yes. heatherly misses the point entirely. Yes. Many incest and rape survivors aren't just "okay" with these stories -- they actively seek them out. But to understand that, I think you should read xanphibian's post.

For the record, I'm bothered by heatherly's opportunistic fear-mongering about "outsiders" on the heels of the latest scares. There's potential for a fandom backlash against writers of incest, non-con, and chan. If that happens, no one's going to care if it's a good story or a bad story, or if it's "realistic" or not. We'll just be targeted based on the warnings.

If that happens, I'd do the same thing we did in LJ. I'd take all the warnings off my stories.

Lastly... "writing responsibly"? What the heck is that even supposed to mean?

Comments

[keelywolfe.livejournal.com]

Lastly... "writing responsibly"? What the heck is that even supposed to mean?

I have no idea, but it reminds me of the same people who think we should have responsible television and radio to 'protect the children' rather than making the parents do it.

'Writing responsibly' must be the stupidest phrase I have ever heard. How do I write irresponsibly? Do I have to have a few beers first? Does it require me posting my stories on a the Sesame Street website? I have no idea.

I hate it when people try to tell me what I should or should not write.

Writing Irresponsibly

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

By having too many PWPs and trying to drive while typing one-handed.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

How do I write irresponsibly? Do I have to have a few beers first?

Ha!

Don't use spellcheck..?

[nicocoer.livejournal.com]

*headdesk* I wonder if the people being all OMGNOESATTHESEFICSEW know that they are going to force fic writers to take warning s off and thus presenting un-warned for triggers to the survivors with PTSD. *sigh*

and I've seen the "writing responsibly" thing, and it blows and jsut pisses me off. I may not know for Sure what my biological father did other then take "photographs" and beat my mother, but even if I DID I would be PISSED at this whole "Writing Responsibly" thing. ugh.

[maelwaedd.livejournal.com]

Ditto, truly. I hadn't seen either of the posts you refer to, but while I refuse to read about rape I have sought out incest fic. Each to their own, I think.

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

It means that you should not type fanfic while driving.

[amalthia]

lol

[fer-de-lance.livejournal.com]

What the heck is that even supposed to mean?

Maybe it's like drinking responsibly? Like, "don't do it for so long that you park your car in your neighbour's window"? Mainly applies, presumably, to those folks who get feverish writing urges and sit scribbling for hours till their brains stop working, resulting in bizarre, often ruded behaviour until they pass out of heat/hunger/exhaustion.

:D Oh, and word! about the outsiders things. They're not going to care if it's a "responsibly written" story, any more than the Potter-hunters care about the attitude toward witchcraft in HP. There's a wizard on the cover, ergo it's a 955 page treatise on Why You Should Become a Pagan, Kid. The same thing's going to apply to fanfic; it says 'incest' in the header, ergo it's a 10,000-word essay on Go Out and Bonk Your Relatives, Right Now! ((eyerolling))

[fer-de-lance.livejournal.com]

... erm, make that rude behaviour. ((smacks forehead))

[aizjanika.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link to xanphibian's post. I didn't know about any of this, but that post especially was very interesting.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I'm really impressed with xanphibian. That was so well thought out and level-headed, and such a clear explanation.

[skipmcgee.livejournal.com]

"writing responsibly"? What the heck is that even supposed to mean?

Ugh. I have heard that term thrown around so many times in the last week or so. And considering how clearly she defines many of the other terms in her essay it is odd that 'writing responsibly' comes off as pretty vague.

The whole thing just makes me flash back to the time when Eminem was new and people kept telling him he needed 'more responsible lyrics' because the listeners might interpret them as literal acts - which was just a nice way of saying he needed to self-censor.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

And considering how clearly she defines many of the other terms in her essay it is odd that 'writing responsibly' comes off as pretty vague.

Yeah. It doesn't strike me as accidental.

the listeners might interpret them as literal acts - which was just a nice way of saying he needed to self-censor.

Yep.

[amalthia]

thanks for posting this link.

[amalthia]

p.s. I have no freaking clue what that means to "write responsibly" personally I think anyone who feels people need to "write responsibly" should be banned from reading anything. Obviously they don't know how to read responsibly.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I'm ready to change all the cut-tags on my fics to "By clicking this I agree to read responsibly. And use a condom."

[maraceles.livejournal.com]

Bwhahahah! That would be brilliant.

Anyway, thanks for linking the post. The idea of writing responsibly i.e. self-censorship is starting to bother the crap outta me...

[ella-bane.livejournal.com]

"By clicking this I agree to read responsibly. And use a condom."

Hee!

[amalthia]

rofl

[ella-bane.livejournal.com]

There's potential for a fandom backlash against writers of incest, non-con, and chan. If that happens, no one's going to care if it's a good story or a bad story, or if it's "realistic" or not. We'll just be targeted based on the warnings.

Good point. :(

Thanks for the link to Green's response! She put things in perfect perspective, for me.

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

Wow, good thing I don't put specific warnings on my stories in the first place. [wry smile]

I agree with the (several) other people who were metafandomed recently that heatherly personally dislikes this sort of thing and is looking for rational-sounding reasons why it should be banned.

Don't like? Don't read. And learn to use the [Back] button.

Angie

[chronolith.livejournal.com]

I think I'm going to back out of that thread before I get really flame-y.

Some people really do not seem to understand the concept of fantasy. Like, at all. I think these people do not get that rape fantasies are the single most prevelant type of fantasy for women (not men) and they don't picture themselves at the rapist. And you know what? That's peachy keen because it's a fucking fantasy.

Honestly, I kinda wonder about these people's sex lives if they don't have any conception of sexual fantasy.

[rushlight75.livejournal.com]

I just finished reading the debate on xanphibian's journal. Wow. I'm honestly not sure whether I'm offended or amused. Basically it left me with two responses:

1. The fact that some people seem literally incapable of distinguishing between fantasy and reality is just staggering to me.

2. How can the existence of a story be morally repugnant? For example, I dislike stories in which one or more of the main characters dies. They make me sad, and tie my stomach up in knots, and (depending on how well they're written) generally leave me feeling depressed and traumatized. But guess what? There are a large number of death fics out there that I will never read because I know how I'll react to them, but the knowledge that they're out there lurking on the internet unread does not keep me up at night. They have every right to exist, and to be read by whomever wishes to read them. Their authors have the right to write as many death fics as their hearts desire. The fact that I'm personally uncomfortable reading them has nothing to do with the author's right to write them. IMO, thinking otherwise would be silly.

Then again, I'm not of the opinion that such stories need to be warned for, either. Every time I click on a story link, I'm perfectly aware that I'm taking my mental well-being into my own hands. ^_^

[aukestrel.livejournal.com]

Then again, I'm not of the opinion that such stories need to be warned for, either. Every time I click on a story link, I'm perfectly aware that I'm taking my mental well-being into my own hands. ^_^

OMG! That's it, out! Out of fandom! How dare you take personal responsibility for your actions! What is the world coming to???

/sarcasm

[aukestrel.livejournal.com]

I just friended you - hope you don't mind. :/ I am not an incest survivor - and one of the things that bothered me the most about heatherly's post was the implication that one had to be a survivor in order to wrwite about such things; people who have not been through this trauma cannot, apparently, understand it or at least depict it in fiction - but I am with you on the whole "who defines 'responsible'"? The answer to that is... not something I want to contemplate. I am in fanfiction because it's a place where I can create universes I want to explore, or explore universes created by others in my own way. That way happens to be slash; it could as easily be incest or chan or RPF or what have you. There are people who think writing slash fiction is "irresponsible." There are people who think writing fanfiction is irresponsible. Where DO you draw the line?

I choose not to draw a line. As a fictional world, as an artistic creation, all fanfic is created equal and should be treated equally, that is, as a manifestation of our ability to think and create, no matter what other people think of it.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Hey, welcome.

one of the things that bothered me the most about heatherly's post was the implication that ... people who have not been through this trauma cannot, apparently, understand it or at least depict it in fiction

I mention my experience because I think it gives my position more weight with the folks who believe that's important, but I agree with you. No, it isn't relevant. There's no one at the gate giving one person a pass to write a subject while another should not. *eyeroll*

You know how many times I've encountered that bogus idea? A gay friend believes I shouldn't write slash since I'm not gay. The boyfriend said I couldn't write a gritty war story because I'm a gentle (okay, maybe not that gentle) Buddhist -- though he changed his mind when he read the story that came out of ten months of war research (including talking to two Vietnam veterans).

[aukestrel.livejournal.com]

And that *hurt*. The first time I encountered, "You're a woman, you're sensationalising the gay experience for your own selfish ends, and you can't possibly understand it," that HURT. I really had some self doubt for a while.

But in the end, it came down to this: I wasn't HURTING anyone. Someone else was "choosing" to be hurt - it wasn't my intent. I'm n ot really sure why I like slash but I think part of it is that there is no question of equality in a slash relationship: two men is sort of "automatically" equal. What that says about me and about our culture and society I am well aware of, but it doesn't change how I feel about writing about a relationship where they make the rules and where they are presumed to be equal from the get go. Another part is that "make your own rules" - the man/woman thing, sure, whatever, but how *would* two men negotiate the same issues that a heterosexual couple has to negotiate?

I'm a Unitarian, so that's also part of why I find this debate so... frustrating. Everyone has to find his or her own path. No one can choose another's path and, um, judging someone else's path is both a waste of time and pointless. In some worldviews it might even be regarded as morally wrong or at best ambiguous. *g*

[chronolith.livejournal.com]

one had to be a survivor in order to wrwite about such things

oh hay thar something that had been bothering me that I couldn't put a finger on until now.

I think it's a type of elitism and a way of saying that she, because she deals with these issues in her offline life, can determine the right way of talking/thinking/writing about these issues but the rest of us lowly fen cannot. That implication rankles, honestly, because it reeks of patronizing bullshit.

I'm not an incest survivor, but I have survived a lot of shit that I'm willing to bet most of the Fen has not. I guess according to her I get to tell the rest of the Fen the 'right' way to write about gang violence, getting shot, and war because I've experienced it up close and personal. This idea, to me, is abhorent. Mostly because I have problems talking coherently about what's happened to and around me. I like warfic and violent fic because it puts into words things inside of my head that I have trouble articulating. And if I don't like it, okay well there's the back button.

But somehow she is more specially and fragile and the rest of us have to 1) take care of how we write so we don;t hurt her fragile feelings, and 2) listen to her tell us how we ought to write because she knows better. That's crap.

[aukestrel.livejournal.com]

Definitely there seemed to be a "right way" implication in her post; I believe someone else pointed out that she went to a lot of trouble to define terms but left "responsible" out there as a very, um, nebulous "write your own definition here" kind of term, and, indeed, that word "responsible" was one of the red flags for me. The other thing that rankled was, as you say, that only people who have some personal knowledge of a subject are somehow qualified to write about it. That might be true for designing rocket engines, but somehow I don't think it's exactly true for writing fanfic. Or, um, even professional fiction. *g*

[filenotch.livejournal.com]

Fuck "writing responsibly." Write whatever the hell you want. I'm about the last person you'd expect to come up with a "think of the children" argument (Yo, sexual relationship with authority figure from the age of 10 to 14 or 15 (I can't be sure), so I'm not speaking without some clue.), but I wish some fics were posted with some thought. And I mean specifically fics that paint such relationships as good, or the child as seducer, etc. The "Don't like? Don't read" attitude is fine for adults talking to other adults, but I said it in my (again unflocked) post and I'll say it here: If I'd read that kind of thing when I was in the middle of it, I don't know how much more what happened to me would have fucked me up.

Abusers were, in most cases, abused themselves. In their experience, it's normal. Although it was my experience, I've been able to re-set my parameters to "not normal to have sex with minors over whom you have authority." With a vengance.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I keep hearing this "they were abused as kids too" but in my observation it's not an identical carbon copy of what they experienced, but rather some new variation.

My friends were all excited about V.C. Andrews when I was a kid. They gave it to me to read, and I knew by page two it wasn't for me. I didn't tell them why, I just told them it was overemtional crap (partially true).

It didn't mess me up because I was smart enough to avoid it. So I have a hard time believing that a kid in my situation would read it. Maybe I was a unique snowflake and exceptionally smart and self-aware... yeah, right. It made me cringe and I dropped it like a hot potato.

I don't think I was fucked up. Fucked up comes later when you have patterns that no longer make sense. I think I had a very rational response to an irrational situation. Locking my bedroom door at night was only reasonable under the circumstances. Hiding the fact that I had boyfriends (even my brother didn't know) was smart given the interest and comments it stirred up from the man WG calls "Sleazebag."

I had my escape plan from the time I was 12: I would ride my bike to my friend's, tell her mom what was going on, then get a ride to my grandmother's. From there I would call my dad in Toronto. I'd be on a train to Toronto that day. From there I'd call my mom and tell her from a safe distance, and she could have all the drama she wanted once I was out of range (I knew she'd send my toys). The two critical flaws in my plan were that I'd have to leave my cat and my little brother, and I was the only one taking care of my brother. Therefore it was a last resort.

Years later, when I told my stepdad (he was an alcoholic and didn't remember what he did), well, his first response was, "That's monstrous." Then he denied it to my mom and let her believe I had "false memory syndrome." Though she was the one who came up with that idea, not that I was all that surprised.

P.S. After he left her the year before last, he called me and asked if it was good for me, then tried to tell me that it was thinking of me that got him to look for someone other than my mom. Lovely. I rolled my eyes knowing full well the real reasons he left my mom.

So, no. I don't buy the "think of the children" argument at all. One friend of mine said I was never a kid, but I dunno. I think kids deserve some credit.

[filenotch.livejournal.com]

Well, I suppose we're all one in Buddhism, but my facet of reality was much different from yours. But I guess in your view it makes me "stupid" that at the age of 10 I bought into a teacher teaching me about sex in such a way that I liked it. There were no doors to lock. This happened decades before it became common to talk to kids about appropriate and inappropriate touching. I had nothing with which to arm myself against it, much less any idea that I should. He was a teacher, teaching me more than the others because I was "special."

Which is, I guess, a euphemism for stupid, isn't it?

I have never meant, in this discussion, that anyone should do anything different, only that I wished some of them might give some thought to the fact that there might be unintended consequences of what they post. How selfish of me to express a preference. You were turned off by those books. Fine. Had I found erotic fiction that glorified my situation, I'd have eaten it like candy. It was a very slow awakening for me to learn that he was lying and the true reason for the need for silence. I was naive, and it's funny that discovering regular porn was part of my path. Eventually I realized there was nothing in it like what we were doing. Trust me, it was a moment like a kensho. I managed to get out of it without destroying his family, but it took another year or two.

And FWIW, a long after I put a stop to it he asked me if I had any regrets. When I said, "The sex," he responded that I'd be welcome back in his bed anytime. Perhaps it's a pattern of the type.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

And FWIW, a long after I put a stop to it he asked me if I had any regrets. When I said, "The sex," he responded that I'd be welcome back in his bed anytime. Perhaps it's a pattern of the type.

Ugh!

They see you as such an object of sexual gratification they don't get you have a will and mind of your own.

Not stupidity on your part. I was helped by the fact that I'd already seen him worm his way into my mom's life, breaking up her marriage with my dad -- and he bragged about his cleverness. So he was the dangerous outsider that I refused to call "dad." He had no basis of trust to work from. In fact, I regarded him with abiding suspicion and narrowed eyes, though eventually his charm won me over too, after three years.

Also, people who try to fuck you when they're falling down drunk are never pleasant. This was not intelligence on my part -- this was disgust.

That said, he got away with fondling me for a year and a half before he ratcheted it up to a level (drunker than usual) that frightened me. He never attempted to convince me it was right (and he could have), instead he told me, "I love you so much I want to eat you up." That's when I made my escape plan and started locking the doors.

Lastly, unlike your situation, he wasn't after me in particular. I was merely there -- a blow-up doll would have served the same purpose. I know that it's typical for kids to blame themselves, and for years I thought, "If I hadn't been so stupid I would have stopped it sooner...." It was humiliating.

But you have to give yourself credit. You did put a stop to it. I did come up with an escape plan and a clear line of demarcation where if he went this far, I would implement it. And that's pretty impressive for a 12-year-old. The fact that you considered the impact on his family is pretty amazing. We were too young to understand this was wrong but we did figure it out.

I still find myself having to shake off habits that I developed dealing with that situation, things like making excuses for him. I had deal with him every day, and I needed his support in my problems with my mom. I needed to negotiate with him to get him to stop bullying my brother and I used his attraction to me for leverage, distraction, whatever it took to protect my little brother. One of the benefits of being a nun all those years is that I completely broke my habit of manipulating men with a ruthless sexuality, though I hurt two boyfriends pretty badly before I realized it was a problem.

Back to the book... it's odd, though. I was given the book before I'd put together this was wrong and I still didn't like it.

[filenotch.livejournal.com]

...for years I thought, "If I hadn't been so stupid I would have stopped it sooner...." It was humiliating.

Trust me, it's more humiliating to know you walked in the door often anticipating it.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Oh, John....

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Oh, that last bit about being turned off by the book even before I'd figured out what my stepdad was doing wrong can easily be taken the wrong way. I'm wondering if you would have responded the same way I did, because there obviously were some niggling questions, a vague disturbed feeling that made me push V. C. Andrews away.

[stewardess.livejournal.com]

I am bugged by her conclusions because they put a burden on fanfiction that shouldn't be on any art form. Creative works do not have to make the world a better place. Sometimes they can simply be enjoyed.

I believe in writing fanfiction responsibly, but I am coming from a different direction than heatherly. I want to be responsible to fandom, to my readers, not a possible "victim."

For instance, when a heated discussion of unconscious racism in SGA fanfiction occurred a couple of months back, I agreed it was a serious problem the SGA fandom needed to talk about. The point was not "Don't write about racism!" but instead suggesting a writer think twice about creating an AU where Teyla is a maid and Ronon a chauffeur. I don't think stories like that necessarily "victimize" anyone, but I do feel they are inaccurate characterizations of Teyla and Ronon, based on the writer's unconscious prejudice. Therefore, stories like that are a disservice to fandom. It would be entirely possible to write a realistic SGA AU about racism -- Teyla and Ronon on Earth and dealing with prejudice at Stargate command, for instance. Can anyone rec a story like that?

But how is a racist SGA AU irresponsible when a rape story is not? Both racism and rape have the power to victimize, after all.

There is a important difference between racist SGA AUs and rape stories. The racist SGA AUs contained real racism, unconscious or otherwise. Rape stories do not, however, contain real rape, no matter how much a story may glamorize or trivialize the subject.

I think the only responsibility I have as a fanfiction writer is to write stories with accurate characterization.

P.S. I typed "victim" as fictim by accident. We could use that to refer to the "writing responsibly" argument. I was fictimized by your story! Heh.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Fictim! Ha!

As for the race thing, I wasn't involved. I can't remember what I was doing at the time but I think I was writing Necromancy For The Living.

Hmm. I guess you can't really say, "Don't write this" but you can say "I don't like this and here's why." One of the commenters in heatherly's post supported public censure. I pointed out, "Don't we already have that? It's called reviews."

[djinanna.livejournal.com]

What you said, what Green said. And if you haven't, you should check out what entrenous said, too: "responsibility" for writers; writing & fear; some self indulgent & happy shouting into the void (http://entrenous88.livejournal.com/553312.html), because what she said, too.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Oh. That's positive, upbeat and uplifting. Thank you.